Leica Ends Free Sensor Replacement for M9/Monochrom Bodies

[jaapv]

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13 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I see nothing wrong with M240. It just not boutique to coffee shop living style camera,  but badass , stray dog camera.

Not only weather-sealed , but large battery.

My M-E is not for drizzle, nor for frozzle camera. Then it is really cold, M-E battery quits in no time. Second battery is not helping. And I don't think M10 battery will last as long and M240 battery in real winter hike. I mean, then it is cold and you have to dig out spare battery under your clothes and have your hands exposed to the frost bite. I dropped spare battery into the snow and in the dark, because my hands were getting numb and dealing with bottom plate in addition to it is not adding anything good in this experience. 

 

 

You would have lost your film the same way with a film M.  

[Ko.Fe.]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

You would have lost your film the same way with a film M.  

It looks like you are making some wrong assumptions. 

My batteries are getting dead not because I machine gun. But because temperature is way bellow freezing point. 

I do not machine gun. On event I would sped some frames, not some films. And with digital M together with family pictures and event pictures I often have 72 frames per event. :).

 

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[jaapv]

You'd drop it into the snow as well, and after 36 exposures

[silverchrome]

17 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

They still sell the M8 on their used store. So I suspect they'll still sell the M240 in their used store when the M20 is here! And they're ALL insanely robust cameras. When the M8 came out I wondered if that was worthwhile. I mean my M2s from the 50s work great and probably will work for decades more, BUT I have my doubts about the electronics. I have Contax RTSs (I and a II) which are no longer repairable as far as I can tell. I finally managed to get my RTS III repaired and it's still working. Those early electronics can't be replicated and spare parts can be non-existant depending on make. Is it worth making a camera that can last 50 years from a build standpoint but will probably become doorstops because it is no longer possible to replace or service the electronics? 

Now maybe Leica has a vast store of spare parts or maintains the ability to repair any of it's Ms so maybe it's immune to this, but even if this is true, and even though the M8 is now 12 years old, it's 10.1MP image is still reasonably effective, though of course I'd rather use my current M10 and my M9 (once it's back from sensor corrosion replacement). But generally digitals are expected to have a shorter working life as their electronics are obsoleted by later models. I'll bet more people are using M8s than are using 12 year old cameras from other digital camera makers, but there are limits. Will anyone be using an M8 in 2056? Yet the body can probably be expected to last that long. Course they're wonderful to use, so maybe it's not the longevity but the experience.

Of course people are using M8s more than any other 12-year-old camera.  Rangefinders are a niche and if you want a digital rangefinder you don't have any other choice but Leica (or Epsom).  Given the price of these cameras, many people will inevitably start with an M8.

If Leica had real competition, you can bet people would not be using an M8.  Many people would probably not be using one of the other Ms either especially if the competition employed a better sensor, better reliability and lower running costs.

Digital Leicas might be robust but the M240 has had the least problems.

Edited November 29, 2018 by silverchrome

[Ko.Fe.]

If not electronics, then batteries. Leica has three digital M types with three different sizes of batteries. Is any of those three batteries similar to another manufacturer batteries? Like Epson RD ones are available under different brands. 

I'm not sure how long made in China official Leica M9 battery is going to last and for how long they will be available as new. 

My Canon from 2008 battery still works. 

[carbon_dragon]

5 hours ago, silverchrome said:

Of course people are using M8s more than any other 12-year-old camera.  Rangefinders are a niche and if you want a digital rangefinder you don't have any other choice but Leica (or Epsom).  Given the price of these cameras, many people will inevitably start with an M8.

If Leica had real competition, you can bet people would not be using an M8.  Many people would probably not be using one of the other Ms either especially if the competition employed a better sensor, better reliability and lower running costs.

Digital Leicas might be robust but the M240 has had the least problems.

You mean competition in rangefinders? Certainly they have massive competition in general, and massive competition in mirrorless cameras (both rangefinder and non rangefinder mirrorless cameras). But the last other manufacturers to do rangefinders were I think Cosina and Nikon (S3 2000) and maybe Zeiss (the ZM)? And none of them are digital, so you're right, if you want a digital rangefinder, your choices are M8, M9, M240, M10, M Monochrom, and the M Monochrome 246 (and all their many special variants) and the M8 is the cheapest (though the M9 is getting down there, especially if the sensor hasn't been replaced). 

I started with the M8 but at the time, digitals were a bit more primitive themselves! If I were doing it today, much as I like the M8 and it's infrared abilities, I'd start with the M9 or the M240 if at all possible. I agree that the M240 would be the right place to start if you had $3K to spend. 

Though I might be a little tempted by the Fuji X100 series with their "pseudo" rangefinder style and their film modes. And I'm close to ordering a D-Lux 7 even though it's a straight up mirrorless non rangefinder. 

[carbon_dragon]

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2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

If not electronics, then batteries. Leica has three digital M types with three different sizes of batteries. Is any of those three batteries similar to another manufacturer batteries? Like Epson RD ones are available under different brands. 

I'm not sure how long made in China official Leica M9 battery is going to last and for how long they will be available as new. 

My Canon from 2008 battery still works. 

Yes the M8s and M9s use one style, the M240 a second (and larger) and the M10s the third. As far as I know those cameras don't have an aftermarket battery I've seen. Now the D-Lux and C-Lux cameras have Panasonic equivalents and I'm pretty sure those can use Panasonic batteries as well, and they do have aftermarket batteries too I think. And I think the X's have some too. I'm not sure how trustworthy they are and some seem to come with their own chargers. I think some of the X aftermarket batteries are called Wasabi batteries?

Maybe the Ms are so expensive that you're unlikely to pay $7K for a camera and then not buy a regular Leica battery (even though they ARE expensive)?

There's an old joke about Timex considering making pacemakers but much cheaper than the existing ones. The joke is a junior exec stands up and says ... a cheap pacemaker, surgically implanted in your chest, who's going to buy it? 

On the other hand, if your camera is a D-Lux at about 1K, maybe it makes more sense? Leica owners certainly try to take advantage of cheaper versions of Olympus EVFs, including for M240s though right?

But you don't have to buy that many and they take quite a while to "wear out" so it doesn't see that big a problem.

[Ko.Fe.]

21 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

Yes the M8s and M9s use one style, the M240 a second (and larger) and the M10s the third. As far as I know those cameras don't have an aftermarket battery I've seen. Now the D-Lux and C-Lux cameras have Panasonic equivalents and I'm pretty sure those can use Panasonic batteries as well, and they do have aftermarket batteries too I think. And I think the X's have some too. I'm not sure how trustworthy they are and some seem to come with their own chargers. I think some of the X aftermarket batteries are called Wasabi batteries?

Maybe the Ms are so expensive that you're unlikely to pay $7K for a camera and then not buy a regular Leica battery (even though they ARE expensive)?

There's an old joke about Timex considering making pacemakers but much cheaper than the existing ones. The joke is a junior exec stands up and says ... a cheap pacemaker, surgically implanted in your chest, who's going to buy it? 

On the other hand, if your camera is a D-Lux at about 1K, maybe it makes more sense? Leica owners certainly try to take advantage of cheaper versions of Olympus EVFs, including for M240s though right?

But you don't have to buy that many and they take quite a while to "wear out" so it doesn't see that big a problem.

D-Lux, C-Lux are not Leica made and not Leica designed cameras, they are Panasonic cameras with Leica decor on them and Panasonic line of batteries.

Third party battery in M8 is not uncommon. Some high quality, made in Japan are available. 

I do have non Leica M9 batteries. Just as original M9 most current battery they are made in China. But ten or so times less in price. I'm not alone on this. 

M8, M9 total run of cameras introduced enough demand for third party batteries. But choice of working ones is limited.

M8 and M9 batteries from third party manufacturers are not always the same. M8 battery is less finicky and have less capacity.

  

Edited November 30, 2018 by Ko.Fe.

[carbon_dragon]

M8 and M9 use the same battery. I only found this out recently, as both cameras came with a whole different style of charger, but it appears to be true.

[low325]

On 11/28/2018 at 7:00 AM, carbon_dragon said:

They still sell the M8 on their used store. So I suspect they'll still sell the M240 in their used store when the M20 is here! And they're ALL insanely robust cameras. When the M8 came out I wondered if that was worthwhile. I mean my M2s from the 50s work great and probably will work for decades more, BUT I have my doubts about the electronics. I have Contax RTSs (I and a II) which are no longer repairable as far as I can tell. I finally managed to get my RTS III repaired and it's still working. Those early electronics can't be replicated and spare parts can be non-existant depending on make. Is it worth making a camera that can last 50 years from a build standpoint but will probably become doorstops because it is no longer possible to replace or service the electronics? 

Now maybe Leica has a vast store of spare parts or maintains the ability to repair any of it's Ms so maybe it's immune to this, but even if this is true, and even though the M8 is now 12 years old, it's 10.1MP image is still reasonably effective, though of course I'd rather use my current M10 and my M9 (once it's back from sensor corrosion replacement). But generally digitals are expected to have a shorter working life as their electronics are obsoleted by later models. I'll bet more people are using M8s than are using 12 year old cameras from other digital camera makers, but there are limits. Will anyone be using an M8 in 2056? Yet the body can probably be expected to last that long. Course they're wonderful to use, so maybe it's not the longevity but the experience.

I meant they will sell them new not used. But what do we know? Just arguing on the internet like kids!!

[carbon_dragon]

Hmmm... That would be interesting. Maybe you're right, we'll see. I certainly think it's a good basic machine that would still be valuable to buy at a lower price point.

By the way, Just approved the repair for my M9. Should take about 3 weeks (or so goes the estimate). And they verified that it was good that I sent it in NOW because the price is going up on December 1st! So thanks guys for kicking me in the rear to get me to test it out and get the camera in.

[Jeff S]

On 11/30/2018 at 9:42 AM, carbon_dragon said:

.....because the price is going up on December 1st! 

Here's the official price increase info...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/12/price-increased-on-leica-ccd-sensor-replacement/

Jeff

[carbon_dragon]

That correlates with what they told me. It's only been a couple of weeks since I sent it in. The Leica repair status page has shown no change and the dates and states in the list are a bit confusing. But then I knew it would take quite a while to get to the top of their repair queue, and until it does, I doubt there will be any status change. 

I kind of wish I could have upgraded to a 240 for a more reasonable price (like maybe $2000 for a refurbished model instead of $3850). I was tempted to upgrade to a Q though I'm not a big fan of 28mm. The upgrade price was more reasonable though. Good information in that link, I hope as it indicates my M9 will be immune to corrosion from when I get it back. I've heard about M8 owners getting bills for $2K for a new sensor and I was afraid it would actually be more expensive.

I also have my Leica IIIf into Youxin Ye for replacement of the rangefinder mirror and general CLA hoping to get a camera I can focus more easily. That's been in the works for a while too! You know when you buy an antique like the IIIf (already 50+ years old when I bought it), you don't really know what it felt like when it was new. Leicas are pretty durable but my IIIf was always really hard to focus for me to see the rangefinder images come together. I never knew is it was just the way things were or if it was once easier. Maybe I'll find out when it comes.

[jaapv]

Unfortunately Leica sensors are very expensive. Proprietary design, small production runs. Even now, the M9 sensor replacement is below actual cost.

Have a look at the CL and M adapter. There are quite a few happy users on the CL forum that were dedicated M photographers before.

[carbon_dragon]

Just FYI, I approved my repair on 11/30/18 and received my M9 back repaired on 1/2/19. It looks very nice and it appears to work. The box was soggy on the outside (came via UPS) but the inner packaging was Ok.

[Susie]

Hi Guys,

I took my M9 into Leica Mayfair on Tuesday for a sensor clean prior to another trip to South Africa.  Jimmy gave me the bad news that the sensor has started to corrode - not badly but enough to make me think of replacement.  The camera was made in 2009 - so one of the first and is on its original sensor.  Weighing up the options I am pretty sure I will get it replaced.  I like the look of the files and only rarely need to diverge much from base ISO, and use it very much as a "digital film" camera if that makes sence.  The unfortunate thing is that there goes some cash I could have put towards some GAS remedy!

I will check my MM now. That had a replacement just before I bought it, but unfortunately with the original type.

Susie

[pedaes]

37 minutes ago, Susie said:

Hi Guys,

I took my M9 into Leica Mayfair on Tuesday for a sensor clean prior to another trip to South Africa.  Jimmy gave me the bad news that the sensor has started to corrode - not badly but enough to make me think of replacement.  The camera was made in 2009 - so one of the first and is on its original sensor.  Weighing up the options I am pretty sure I will get it replaced.  I like the look of the files and only rarely need to diverge much from base ISO, and use it very much as a "digital film" camera if that makes sence.  The unfortunate thing is that there goes some cash I could have put towards some GAS remedy!

I will check my MM now. That had a replacement just before I bought it, but unfortunately with the original type.

Susie

Sorry to hear but think you are right to get it replaced.The M9 is still a great camera and I couldn't see any difference in rendering with latest sensor. Unfortunately final bill and weak £GBP will cure your GAS.

[atournas]

I just found out that my M9 has started developing corrosion (plus a dead pixel) on the sensor, three and a half years after its first replacement, apparently with a similar one.

My question is---can I delay its replacement for a year, say, without worsening the fault and while using the camera? I understand I'm risking cost rise.

Paul

Edited January 13, 2019 by atournas

[jaapv]

It will cost the same, whether badly corroded or not, and Leica has raised the price not too long ago, so I think you could risk it.

Might it not be a good idea to ask Leica CS Wetzlar to call the camera in when they have a slot for a quick turnaround available?

However,as this is a replaced sensor, it could be eligible for a free replacement. You can always ask.

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[Aliturk]

I bought a 2nd hand M9 in 2015. It had just had its sensor replaced with the old type. Just over 3 years later i noticed sensor corrosion. I took it into my dealer asking if they reckon Leica would replace it again for free. They doubted it, but contacted Leica and they said they would. So now it has a new type sensor. They mentioned to Leica that i have an M7 and M10, so may be the replaced it for free as a gesture of thanks for customer loyalty