Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Share #1 Posted May 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have just purchased a F1.0 Noctilux in a near mint condition from a UK Leica dealer. The lens was delivered well packaged with no signs of damage. I have mounted it on my M262 and M246, I have taken photos at different apertures and distances and it is completely out of focus. I put the EVF on my M246 and the photos using the EVF are in focus. At a distance of 5 feet at F2.8 the lens is back focusing by 8 inches. I have a number of other M lenses and have no problem with their focus. I phoned the dealer to say that the lens was out of focus. Before I was allowed to explain my reasons I was told that "all our lenses are checked before we send them out, your camera is at fault", I explained my findings, to which he replied that "if the lens is producing in focus photos through the EVF it is clear that there is not a problem with the lens". He has agreed to take the lens back to "check it over". I have bought a lot of Leica lenses and bodies from this dealer over the years , last month I bought a used M135 F3.4 and a M21mm F3.4 and they have sold a lot of my gear on commission . I have always had a very good relationship otherwise I would not go back to them. My guess is that the lens was outwardly in such good condition that it was not tested, but it is their attitude right from the start that the customer is wrong that has really upset me. I have owned a F1 Noctilux before and used it successfully on a M9 but it had very stiff focusing, even after it had been sent to Germany to be serviced, so I sold it. Is the dealer correct in stating if the lens is in focus through the EVF the camera is at fault ? I have 14 M lenses going from my 50mm rigid made in 1959 up to 50mm Apo, 35mm Fle and 90&75 F2 asph modern day lenses, my eyesight is still good and I very rarely use the EVF. I very rarely get out of focus shots . I wish to reject the lens and will not accept it back even if it is sent to Germany to be repaired, my feeling is that like my last one it is a bad copy and probably the reason that it is still in such good condition on the outside. What would you guys say to this dealer if they will not accept that the lens is faulty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 Hi Rupert Greenwell, Take a look here Noctilux out of focus. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
earleygallery Posted May 15, 2017 Share #2 Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) If you don't want the lens back you should advise them of this asap. Refer to sale of goods act and distance selling regulations. The Distance Selling Regulations state that your right to cancel an order starts from the moment you place your order, and doesn’t end until seven working days from the day after you receive your goods. As you haven’t been able to see the goods, this law states that you have a seven-day cooling off period, which starts from the day after delivery, in which to change your mind,” says Frank Shepherd, spokesperson for the Office of Fair Trading. This means you can get a full refund without having to give a reason – regardless of whether the goods are second-hand or new. To get additional protection, it’s also wise to use a credit card when making an online purchase from a company, as you will be protected by the credit card company itself under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. The Act provides protection on goods between £100 and £30,000 in value. But even if you just put a deposit on the card, you are still protected for the full amount. - http://www.moneywise.co.uk Edited May 15, 2017 by earleygallery Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share #3 Posted May 15, 2017 I received the lens on thursday last week, tried it on the friday and spoke to the dealer on that day, they agreed to collect it from me using their own carrier from my home address this coming thursday. ( I am away from my home address till then ). I will email them today stating that I am rejecting the lens. I thought that as the lens is clearly faulty and I have been a long standing customer that all would be resolved but I did not like the reaction that I received. Thanks Rupert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 15, 2017 Share #4 Posted May 15, 2017 I would prefer a lens that has been calibrated by Leica. The probability is that you would receive a perfect lens, something that is not 100% sure with another lens. If the lens is fine using the EVF, the only thing wrong is the adjustment, a relatively simple thing to correct for Leica. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 15, 2017 Share #5 Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) ... Is the dealer correct in stating if the lens is in focus through the EVF the camera is at fault ?... That's rubbish. If you are using the EVF, then focusing is completely unrelated to the mechanical rangefinder system of the camera. It just proves that the optical system of the lens is ok in principle, as it is in fact able to produce a focused image on the camera's sensor. The adjustment of the lens seems completely out of whack though, for whatever reason. Nothing that can't be repaired imho, but it should at least go back to Leica to be correctly adjusted to todays specifications. Cheers Andy Edited May 15, 2017 by wizard 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted May 15, 2017 Andy You are quite right, I am very surprised that a Leica dealer should have said this, he even repeated it to me , we had a cordial discussion as I do not easily get angry but was baffled by his explanation. I will think about this today but will only accept the lens back if it has been to Germany. My other lens took about 3 months turnaround which is not good. thanks Rupert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted May 15, 2017 Share #7 Posted May 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) What you did, testing with the EVF, comparing with the OVF on the Noctilux and other shallow DOF lenses, proves it's the Noctilux that has the issue. I did exactly what you did, then sent mine to Leica service. Now the focus is the same no matter which way I focus. As it should be. The only additional thing you could do is try it on another body. But what you did proved your point anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 15, 2017 Share #8 Posted May 15, 2017 You could contact Leica in Germany by telephone and ask them about their present turnaround time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted May 15, 2017 Share #9 Posted May 15, 2017 Andy You are quite right, I am very surprised that a Leica dealer should have said this, he even repeated it to me , we had a cordial discussion as I do not easily get angry but was baffled by his explanation. I will think about this today but will only accept the lens back if it has been to Germany. My other lens took about 3 months turnaround which is not good. thanks Rupert It seems that dealers need to wake up to the fact that today we have the internet and that us, the consumer, can exchange experiences and learn faster than ever before. Of course there are cases of little knowledge being dangerous thing and customers having unreasonable expectations but in case it is crystal clear that lens is out of calibration. I suspect your Noctilux is not 6-bit coded? Several years ago i bought S/H Summilux 75mm that was manufactured in pre-digital age and it came with 6-bit coding and probably a trip to a good repair person as calibration was spot on with all my M cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted May 15, 2017 Share #10 Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) << "...all our lenses are checked before we send them out..." >> Unless he has an optical test bench parked in the corner of his shop, there is no way for the dealer to definitively "check" your lens. My guess is their "checking out" consists of mounting the lens to a handy M body, snapping a few quick frames, and pronouncing it good. There's no way I would trust any dealer to adjust my lens. That's a job for a Leica service center (and, perhaps, a few specialists such as DAG or Sherry). That said, having a lens that front or back focuses is not at all unusual. And the f1 Noctilux, designed and built in the era of film, was from a far less demanding time. My own copy, purchased new, needed recalibration by Leica. Given everything, my recommendation would be to 1) insist the lens be calibrated and CLA'd by an official Leica Service Center, at dealer expense; or, 2) return to dealer for full refund. If the dealer agrees to a service center calibration, I would include a note that the lens have "perfect focus at f1." The f1 Noct has a characteristic focus shift when stopping down from wide-open and some service technicians, left to their own devices, may compromise the calibration setting in order to minimize that effect. It's too bad your dealer has taken such a holier-than-thou attitude. I ended up ditching my long-term Leica dealer a few years back for something similar. Edited May 15, 2017 by Jager 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted May 15, 2017 Many thanks for your advice and everybody else who has taken a interest in this thread. It has given me some confidence for when I contact the dealer to discuss this matter further. Rupert 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted May 15, 2017 Share #12 Posted May 15, 2017 I wish to reject the lens and will not accept it back even if it is sent to Germany to be repaired, my feeling is that like my last one it is a bad copy and probably the reason that it is still in such good condition on the outside. I bought a 75mm Summilux which was way out on the basis that the repair of the fault would be undertaken by Leica. When it came back from Leica it was absolutely spot on. An immaculate Noctilux is unlikely to be a 'bad' copy simply because the focus is so far out; something has clearly become well out of specification. So its probably worth persevering with if you want a well calibrated and clean Noctilux. Personally I would say to the dealer that such a lens must be serviced/adjusted by Leica and only themselves or otherwise you do not want it. Just my thought. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 15, 2017 Share #13 Posted May 15, 2017 ... That said, having a lens that front or back focuses is not at all unusual. And the f1 Noctilux, designed and built in the era of film, was from a far less demanding time. ... Certainly true. But 8 inches seems like a massive front or back focus. Two inches is what I would consider not uncommon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share #14 Posted May 15, 2017 Thanks Paul I called in at your gallery the week before last when I visited the Bodnant gardens, I met Graham and had a good discussion with him, very impressed with your set up and I wish you all the best with it. I will insist that the lens is sent to Leica or I will ask for a refund. Rupert 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share #15 Posted May 15, 2017 I had a M35 F1.4 asph that back focussed by about 2 inches, I carried out the same test on the Noctilux and it was 8 inches. My worry is that there is rather more wrong with the lens than a bit of back focussing, it is a expensive lens and a lens that I could live without, I need to have complete confidence in it for the long term, after the guarantee has run out. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lucan Posted May 17, 2017 Share #16 Posted May 17, 2017 nTo be fair,Noctilux is not easy to focus,thats my experience,compared with other lenses. I must admit I get more out of focus photos with it than anything and that includes 135 tele elmar. RF mechanism in your camera could also be out. You wont notice with most other lenses because of DOF compensation. Noct is unforgiving. All or most camera dealers in UK operate as true pros. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 18, 2017 Share #17 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) RF mechanism in your camera could also be out. You wont notice with most other lenses because of DOF compensation. Noct is unforgiving. The minimum focus distance of 1m makes the Noctilux more forgiving than it is usually given credit for. Lenses like the 75 APO or 75 Summilux are more of a test of RF accuracy. I agree with the consensus opinion that the lens is worth keeping if the dealer has it calibrated (or repaired) at their expense by Leica in Wetzlar. It'll come back good for a few decades of use. Edited May 18, 2017 by wattsy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 18, 2017 Share #18 Posted May 18, 2017 The only additional thing you could do is try it on another body. But what you did proved your point anyway. I think the OP did. He also reports that the lens doesn't focus properly on his M262. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Greenwell Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share #19 Posted May 18, 2017 the lens does not focus on either body, I use the 75mm and 90mm apo regularly and if I miss focus it is user error. The Noctilux has been returned and I have exchanged it for a 0.95 so fingers crossed that all ends well. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted May 18, 2017 Share #20 Posted May 18, 2017 I've used the 1.0 Noctilux on a couple M8 bodies for about 10 years. It's a hard to focus lens on the best day. The difficulty is augmented in the low light conditions in which the lens shines. I think perhaps 30-40% of my Noctilux shots were in focus, probably less. For all my problems I never got up courage to send it away to be adjusted for better performance. My success rate with the 75mm Summilux was even less as my example is clearly out of whack wide open and showed significant focus shift when stopped down. Hardly worth shooting the 75mm on the M8 from my point of view. Last week I took possession of a M-P (Type 240). Needless to say, things have advanced somewhat over the past 10 years. I also picked up a cheap Olympic EVF for the M-P and am falling in love with both these lenses again. Focusing has become effortless in all light conditions and my success rate has doubled or tripled. I still would like both lenses adjusted for optimal focusing with the M-P's rangefinder, but the EVF has made a world of difference in the meanwhile. These are difficult lenses that really test the limits of rangefinding technology. Do people find the M10 rf superior with these shallow DOF lenses? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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