Should a 12585 hood fit reversed over a 35/2.8 Summaron - is it a "Bitza"

[wlaidlaw]

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I have bought a 12585 from Poland (from a dealer). I think it may be a "Bitza" (bits of this; bits of that). Whereas I think the back ring is correct and original Leitz, I am much less convinced about the ventilated hood part. It has a dark grey metallic finish, which I have never seen on Leica original hoods. The lens cap I also think may be a cheapo Chinese knock-off Leica-ish cap. It fits loosely over the reversed hood and the only writing on the inside is 42∅ (diameter). The cut outs to clear the ring release buttons look crude. The main problem is that the hood will not fit reversed over my 35/2.8 Summaron fouling the focus tab/infinity lock and therefore even the loose fitting cap does not work. I think the cap should fit tightly over the reversed hood or fit tightly in the hood when it is the normal way round, with a substantial lip to be able to remove it from the hood. It was also all covered in sticky label residue and filthy. Below are a couple of pics after cleaning. 

 

Resident expert opinions would be very welcome. Should a 12585 hood be able to be fitted reversed over a 35/2.8 Summaron? 

 

Wilson

 

 

 

 

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[pechelman]

my recollection is that it wont fit reversed, but i can double check for you later when I get home.

 

unless you're using a filter on the summaron, i've never really felt a need to use the hood. The front element is pretty well tucked back into the lens.

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[wlaidlaw]

my recollection is that it wont fit reversed, but i can double check for you later when I get home.

 

unless you're using a filter on the summaron, i've never really felt a need to use the hood. The front element is pretty well tucked back into the lens.

 

Using a Leitz skylight 1A filter on the Summaron, as I have Provia in the camera and my house is at 2580 feet above sea level, with increased UV. 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

My experience is similarly that it won't fit on the 35 Summaron or Summicron when reversed.  It will only work this way on the rigid 50 Summicron.

[wlaidlaw]

My experience is similarly that it won't fit on the 35 Summaron or Summicron when reversed.  It will only work this way on the rigid 50 Summicron.

 

I suspected that would be the case from looking at photos of more certainly genuine ones than mine but in that case the cap should be a firm fit with the hood positioned normally and with a sufficiently wide lip to enable the cap to be removed easily. Mine cannot be removed without poking it from the back of the hood. 

 

Wilson

Edited May 10, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[Michael Hiles]

My 12585 certainly would not reverse on my Summaron 3.5. It did on my 50mm rigid Summicron. They system was wonderful - the shade and cap were always on the lens, and pictures were always made with the shade in place - the only way to take a picture was to remove the cap and reverse the shade. And the cap was appropriately snug - it would only come off by specific intent. And the cap did not fit into the shade from the business end. 

 

Wilson, yours sounds "aftermarket".

Edited May 10, 2017 by Michael Hiles

[pico]

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Wilson, there is a 12585H on the big auction site with a notch machined out of the rim perhaps to clear the knob when reversed. It puzzled me until I read your post. See item 131347030695. Hope this clears the issue.

[jc_braconi]

If you want it reversed you have to remove a part, using various swiss files, of the hood as I have done (in 1970)
 

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[wlaidlaw]

Jac and JC, 

 

I think rather than attack the 12585 with a Dremel, which I have, it is easier and less destructive just to put it in my pocket when not required. What more concerns me is that either the cap is wrong or the front part of the hood is not original, as they only fit where they touch. I will post a photo tomorrow to show what I mean. I will send the same photo to the dealer and ask for an explanation. I suspect both are not original. I am sure that all Leica plastic lens caps have part number in them not a diameter. I have never seen a Leica hood painted in dark metallic grey. The paint on the front of the hood should match the rear ring and it just doesn't. 

 

Wilson

[zeitz]

Both parts look original to me, although the shade itself looks black on my monitor.  I have two of these hoods and caps.  The finish on the shades is slightly different one to the other; one is more glossy while the other is more matte.  Both caps have the 42 on the back side.  Both caps stay on, but one is tighter than the other.  Plastic is not the most stable material after all these years.

[wlaidlaw]

Both parts look original to me, although the shade itself looks black on my monitor.  I have two of these hoods and caps.  The finish on the shades is slightly different one to the other; one is more glossy while the other is more matte.  Both caps have the 42 on the back side.  Both caps stay on, but one is tighter than the other.  Plastic is not the most stable material after all these years.

 

I have been speaking to someone else on this. The greeny-gray metallic finish on the ventilated part of the hood is definitely paint as you can see where it has chipped off and defects in the painting. It should be anodised and match the rear part of the hood which is anodised on the one I have. The cap pretty much goes right inside the front part of the hood, lip and all. Whereas plastic may change a bit over the years, not as much as that. The cap might just be original, in which case it is the front part of the hood which is not. See photo. However, the problem is solved. I had an apologetic email from the dealer in Poland, saying he had not checked the hood and cap prior to sending and from what he hears, I am correct that a third party front has been put on the hood. Also the cap probably is not correct, as it should be quite a snug fit over the back ring of the hood, which I am 99.9% sure is original. It just drops off if you hold it cap down. He has another one which he has thoroughly checked and is sure is all original, so is sending me that one. You can't ask more of a seller who owns up to an honest mistake and does all he can to put it right.

 

Wilson

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[gyoung]

The caps on mine are a bit loose after nearly 50 years, 'plastic fatigue' I guess, but I never use them as the hoods stay on the Summicrons all the time. I dont think the caps are intended to go on the front as you show, just chance that they slide inside? I may be wrong.

The paint job sounds 'un-original'. And they dont reverse on the 35 Summicron I have, but do of course on the 50mm

 

Gerry

[willeica]

I hate to say it at this stage, Wilson, but the IROOA hood reverses on that 35mm LTM Canon lens which we discussed a few weeks ago. 

 

William

[jc_braconi]

Wilson 

This is not the way to use this plastic lid

you use it when the hood is reversed on the lens head 

the two cuts to fit the press buttons.

[wlaidlaw]

JC, 

 

I don't think it is even correct for that. When the cap is fitted on the back of the hood, it is so loose that it drops off if you hold it cap down. There is another one on the way to me FOC. As I cannot reverse the hood on the 35 Summaron, without chopping the hood about, it looks like I am going to have two spare caps   . As I will also have a spare non-original and already distorted hood, I might attack that one with a Dremel. 

 

Wilson

[jc_braconi]

When news these caps have really tiny 'hooks' at the angle of the cuts certainly the one you have is over used 

 

about the milling of the hood you have to set the infinty lock at 4 o clock of the lens looking at it

it is the only place where it will works.

Take care with the dremel tool, some times it is too late to be back ...

[wlaidlaw]

When news these caps have really tiny 'hooks' at the angle of the cuts certainly the one you have is over used 

 

about the milling of the hood you have to set the infinty lock at 4 o clock of the lens looking at it

it is the only place where it will works.

Take care with the dremel tool, some times it is too late to be back ...

 

When I am using the Dremel, I do it in tiny steps and keep offering it up to the object I am grinding to fit. As you say, you can always grind more, adding material back on is a lot more difficult  

 

I will only attempt this when the other 12585 arrives. 

 

Wilson

[gyoung]

I hate to say it at this stage, Wilson, but the IROOA hood reverses on that 35mm LTM Canon lens which we discussed a few weeks ago.

 

William

I sometimes use an IROOA on the 35mm Summicron for the M3, it doesn't really cut off the viewfinder with the goggles so no need for 12585H.

Conversely I made a cutout in the hood for the 35mm Summicron asph so I could 'see through' it on the M6ttl. Its bizarre that this hood doesn't have a cut out, whereas the one for the 21mm Elmarit asph does, for no purpose whatever as no M has a viewfinder for 21mm.

 

Gerry

Edited May 11, 2017 by gyoung

[willeica]

I sometimes use an IROOA on the 35mm Summicron for the M3, it doesn't really cut off the viewfinder with the goggles so no need for 12585H.

Conversely I made a cutout in the hood for the 35mm Summicron asph so I could 'see through' it on the M6ttl. Its bizarre that this hood doesn't have a cut out, whereas the one for the 21mm Elmarit asph does, for no purpose whatever as no M has a viewfinder for 21mm.

 

Gerry

 

Yes the IROOA works with both with Summaron (f2.8 and f3.5 models) and with the Canon LTM 35mm f 2.8. However, the design of the Canon allows reversing, whereas the Summaron Models do not. Some much earlier Leica lenses allow reversing such as the 9cm Elmar with the FIKUS and also the 7.3cm Hektor and 10.5 cm Mountain Elmar with their bespoke lens hoods. I can only get the 12585 to reverse on the 50mm Summicron.

 

William

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[gyoung]

12575 reverses ok on my 90 Elmarit and 135 Elmar. I do store those reversed and the caps seem to stay on ok most of the time.

 

Gerry