Early Summarit - what is so good?

[jaapv]

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Maybe a somewhat more informative MM1 shot @ 1.5. Processing ON1 PhotoRaw 2017, basic setting Magic City (hence split toning), contrast tweaked.

 

 

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I have been been very happy with my copy of the Summarit on M9 and M240. But at 1.5 , I use special processing in capture 1 to get the sharpness (push structure all the way up and sometimes increase the highlights setting). The first one below is M9 at f1.5, the second is M240 at 1.5 with the Summarit. I use it in cases where I want a special character or effect, although it will give good results stopped down at f4 as a general use.

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M240 Iso 640 Summarit at f 2.0.

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[Wayne]

While using a hood is beneficial to results for most lenses, from my experience with this lens, it is a must. 

[wlaidlaw]

I was not using a hood when I took the inside shots, as I thought it was not really necessary inside. I wonder if I was wrong. Certainly the ones I took outside with the Heavystar hood arrangement for this lens (41-43 step up ring and 43mm ventilated hood), were much better. 

[NB23]

I Loved my mint M-mount copy while I had it. Sild it to finance a Lux 21.

 

I tested it against a summilux 50mm V1 and I couldn't see any difference optically. None.

 

I safely assume it's the same as a Lux V1, which is legendary.

[Wayne]

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I was the person Adan referred to in his story about someone asking for advice on 50mm lens. I had received the Summarit with an M3 that was in pretty bad shape. I had used the Summarit with both the M3, and with a few digital cameras. The flare was so bad as to make the lens almost unusable, outdoors. I did send it off for CLA with the M3, but upon return of camera and lens, lens went in drawer; stayed there.

 

Somewhere along the line I did find a bargain on the square metal hood for Summarit and puchased it. It, too, went in drawer; stayed there. Over a year later I made my request for Adan's opinion on 50mm with result that he referenced the Summarit. My past experience with the Summarit had been so disappointing I had not even thought of it for over a year. His advice prompted me to put it on M7, attach hood, and give it a try..........What a surprise.

 

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Not a great photo, from a subject matter standpoint, but, of significance to this thread, if I had turned the lens about 30 degrees up and to left a very bright sun would have been in the frame.

 

 

 

Obviously, the lens is not wide open, but I love the look. It was exactly what I was after. I attribute everything to the use of the hood. Well, CLA may have played a role, as well.

 

OBTW, My object was the brick, which I focused on before recomposing.

 

Best

 

Wayne

Edited May 5, 2017 by Wayne

[wlaidlaw]

I Loved my mint M-mount copy while I had it. Sild it to finance a Lux 21.

 

I tested it against a summilux 50mm V1 and I couldn't see any difference optically. None.

 

I safely assume it's the same as a Lux V1, which is legendary.

 

The Summarit is closely related to the Taylor, Taylor and Hobson (Leicester, England) designed pre-war Xenon but with the air surfaces coated. For licensing/patent reasons, the early Summarits sold in the USA were actually engraved TT&H. At some point in their life (experts?) of from 1949 to 1960, the coating recipe was changed from the early type, which was softer than cheese, to the later type more robust coating. My 1957 version I assume from the lack of damage, has the later type. 

 

The Summilux V1 is a pure Leica/Walter Mandler design. See below for element diagrams. Whereas they are both Gauss doublet designs, the modifiers are quite different. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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Edited May 5, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[NB23]

The Summarit is closely related to the Taylor, Taylor and Hobson (Leicester, England) designed pre-war Xenon but with the air surfaces coated. For licensing/patent reasons, the early Summarits sold in the USA were actually engraved TT&H. At some point in their life (experts?) of from 1949 to 1960, the coating recipe was changed from the early type, which was softer than cheese, to the later type more robust coating. My 1957 version I assume from the lack of damage, has the later type.

 

The Summilux V1 is a pure Leica/Walter Mandler design. See below for element diagrams. Whereas they are both Gauss doublet designs, the modifiers are quite different.

 

Wilson

That's great info.

 

While I had my summarit, which was extremely clean (a lucky find from

Someone that hadn't used it since the 60s), I tested it against my friend's lux V1. We couldn't see a practical difference.

 

When I sold my summarit I immediately regreted and I purchased his Summilux V1 a month later.

 

Both lenses render beautifuly! Images from them add meat around the bone, a thing I can't say about the modern offerings.

[wlaidlaw]

The Summilux V1 was the first M lens I bought in late summer 1967. My father gave me an M4 body (probably the first in Scotland with a very low serial number 1275047, thus the 47th production M4) for my 21st but said I had to work though my summer vacation between graduate and post graduate to buy the lens. I worked as an Argon Arc welder and made enough to buy a 1962 Summilux. Sadly it was stolen when we moved house in 1983, when a whole packing case with the old family silver in it was stolen. I still however, have the M4. 

[adan]

Wilson - according to a Rangefinder Forum post (make of it what you will), Leitz only obtained access to the harder Zeiss vapor- or vacuum-deposition process (invented 1935, first production lens 1939) when Zeiss's patent expired in 1960.

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-78451.html

 

That is the general history I was aware of, although I could not put an exact date on the patent expiration.

 

It's always possible Leitz themselves improved thei own liquid coating material to improve hardness, in the meantime.

[wlaidlaw]

Andy, 

 

I have read elsewhere it changed in 1957, the evidence being that the 35 Summicron, which was multicoated and developed in 1956/57, could not have been coated using the original method, which due to the liquid process is single only. Due to economics, Leica changed all their lenses over to the later vacuum deposition coating method at that point but not for older lenses, multicoating. Now whether my Summarit was coated using the older method and has just been well looked after or the later method, I have no idea.

 

Zeiss were not the only patent holders for single and multi-coating. Rodenstock, Angenieux, Schneider-Kreuznach, Cambo, Taylor Hobson, Cooke and others also held coating patents. The pre-war Zeiss patents for coating would have been cancelled and made open market by the London Agreement of 1946, which cancelled all German patents up to April 1945. Cambo were providing a lens coating service in the Netherlands in the late 1940's using the Zeiss method. Leica may well have negotiated a patent licence from one of the others and only adopted the Zeiss method at some later point. 

 

Wilson

Edited May 5, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[sandro]

My experience with the Summarit is that the light conditions are decisive for the quality and liveliness of the photo. As if the sharpness disappears when direct light is poor. Wide open it is not to be compared to more modern lenses, but we are now used to crop and compare images in a way that wasn't yet dreamed about around 1950. When you keep that in minds and use the lens when the light gives some contrast, the results can be rather nice, even wide open.

Lex

[ldhrads]

Here are a couple of photos and no I was not going outside as it is raining cats and dogs in Provence today. I have done no PP at all other than convert in ACR to JPEG and re-size. I think you can easily see the foggy look I was talking about. These are both taken at f1.5 with an M240. The lens is a seemingly pretty near mint (probably Exc++) cosmetically 1957 model LTM Summarit. Ignore the EXIF if you were looking at it, as the Rayqual LTM to LM adapter ring I used, is coded to use with my series 5 LTM 50mm Summicron. 

 

Wilson

Wilson,

That's how my 1956 Summarit shot and I was really disappointed when I got it because cosmetically it was in good shape and the looked OK, it sat on the shelf for a while and then I really wanted to use it regularly on my MM so I sent it off to Sherry Krauter here in the US (Golden Touch)  She's a gem to talk to and gave it a "bath" as she put it.  It came back an entirely different lens and I really do appreciate it now.  See if you can get someone to take yours apart and give it a good clean, you might be very surprised.!

Regards

Lawrence

[ldhrads]

First example @ 1.5 on MM1, processed in ON1 Photo RAW, mild contrast boost only, no sharpening

 

summarit test1.jpg

I use mine almost exclusively on the MM1, haven't really played with it on the M9-P, too many 50's, it's a disease!

[wlaidlaw]

I use mine almost exclusively on the MM1, haven't really played with it on the M9-P, too many 50's, it's a disease!

 

50's: 3 Elmars, 1 Hektor, 1 Summarit, 1 Summitar, 1 Planar, 1 Opton Sonnar, 1 Anastigmat, 1 S.5 Summicron, 1 0.95 Noctilux plus probably others I have forgotten about. 

 

Wilson