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Expanding my M3 arsenal on a budget? :'( 50mm suggestions?


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As I posted yesterday. I just became part of the Leica family as of yesterday. I am extremely happy with my M3. Shooting like crazy! Almost done with my first roll and hope to send it to the lab tomorrow in order to inspect the picture/camera performance.

Unfortunately, I used my entire budget on the camera package with the Leitz 35mm f3.5 and the SBLOO finder.

One of the reasons that I got my M3 is so that I could document my family. And f3.5 seems very slow sometimes for indoor use. I would love to have the versatile 50mm in a fast Aperture. But I can't spend another $1000 on a nice Zeiss.

By impulse I almost bought Jupiter-8 since they are only about 30 dollars! Or a faster Jupiter-3 for $150! But upon research I learned that they might need modifications to focus correctly. The next best option is a screw-mount collapsible Leitz or Canon for about $200+

Just wanted to see what experts suggest? Obviously a Jupiter is an easy option but might not work at all. So should I just play it safe and get an older screw mount Leitz with adapter? As long as the lens is clean for sharp imaging. Keeping in mind that I want to keep the combo looking sleek and silver.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Edited by Aguilera85
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I used multiple Jupiter-8 and one Jupiter-3 on multiple rangefinders, M3 included. Been Russian, I read original books and the way those lenses manufactured ... they have to be re-shimmed individually. During soviet time they came with government regulation to get factories to do it right (even criminal charges and prison was mentioned) but it never happen. Process called "shimming". Shimming itself is easy, but retaping tiny screws for focus, aperture rings is not. If you want to go this way, get black Jupiter-8. They need just shimming most of the time.

 

Canon LTM 50mm 1.2, 1.4 and 1.8 lenses are prone to extreme fogging. Even if fog is still possible to clean, it is reported to reappear. I have Canon 50 1.8 with unremovable fog.

Maybe, check for Nikkor 50 f2 LTM, instead. They might be more expensive, but with less fogging.

 

If you want to play safe, have decent family pictures under low light, I recommend to look at Nokton 50 1.5. LTM is less expensive than M version, but optics are similar. I never checked it with color film, it does purple fringing wide open on digital Leica. But if you do it classic way on bw film and print family portraits in the darkroom, it is good lens. Sharp at f1.5, no focus shifts.  

 

You could also try to find clean Summitar or clean Collapsible Cron. They are not $1000. I used to have them as well. Great lenses for family portraits. Summarit 50 1.5 is also not $1000 and if you will find one with undamaged coatings, it is OK at f1.5 and fine at f2. 

 

I also recommend to learn how to push quality BW ISO400 at ISO1200-1600. I did family indoor pictures with f4 lens. 

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I've been down the road of indoor lit family shots with fast lenses, and was disappointed with the results. On a hunch I experimented with a bounced flash and have never looked back. Have used it with 35-135 lenses and many more keepers. IMHO a couple of things came into play...in low light, even wide open, shutter speeds were fairly low, and I captured both subject movement and camera movement (just from my pulse);  secondly, the diffused electronic flash was so fast that the movement issue disappeared, and my only learning issue was how best to control the flash in some circumstances. Also, by using a smaller aperture, the focus was much easier as greater DOF came into play; wide aperture lenses can be a real pita to accurately focus due to the extremely narrow DOF when wide open.

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I used multiple Jupiter-8 and one Jupiter-3 on multiple rangefinders, M3 included. Been Russian, I read original books and the way those lenses manufactured ... they have to be re-shimmed individually. During soviet time they came with government regulation to get factories to do it right (even criminal charges and prison was mentioned) but it never happen. Process called "shimming". Shimming itself is easy, but retaping tiny screws for focus, aperture rings is not. If you want to go this way, get black Jupiter-8. They need just shimming most of the time.

 

Canon LTM 50mm 1.2, 1.4 and 1.8 lenses are prone to extreme fogging. Even if fog is still possible to clean, it is reported to reappear. I have Canon 50 1.8 with unremovable fog.

Maybe, check for Nikkor 50 f2 LTM, instead. They might be more expensive, but with less fogging.

 

If you want to play safe, have decent family pictures under low light, I recommend to look at Nokton 50 1.5. LTM is less expensive than M version, but optics are similar. I never checked it with color film, it does purple fringing wide open on digital Leica. But if you do it classic way on bw film and print family portraits in the darkroom, it is good lens. Sharp at f1.5, no focus shifts.  

 

You could also try to find clean Summitar or clean Collapsible Cron. They are not $1000. I used to have them as well. Great lenses for family portraits. Summarit 50 1.5 is also not $1000 and if you will find one with undamaged coatings, it is OK at f1.5 and fine at f2. 

 

I also recommend to learn how to push quality BW ISO400 at ISO1200-1600. I did family indoor pictures with f4 lens. 

 

 

I've been down the road of indoor lit family shots with fast lenses, and was disappointed with the results. On a hunch I experimented with a bounced flash and have never looked back. Have used it with 35-135 lenses and many more keepers. IMHO a couple of things came into play...in low light, even wide open, shutter speeds were fairly low, and I captured both subject movement and camera movement (just from my pulse);  secondly, the diffused electronic flash was so fast that the movement issue disappeared, and my only learning issue was how best to control the flash in some circumstances. Also, by using a smaller aperture, the focus was much easier as greater DOF came into play; wide aperture lenses can be a real pita to accurately focus due to the extremely narrow DOF when wide open.

 

Thank you guys very much for the help!

I thought about flash but i really prefer that mysterious look of low light silhouette, where half the face is slightly illuminated with maybe window light and the rest darker. Thats why i was looking into either an f2 or f1.5.

 

I can't make up my mind now lol. I am tempted to get a jupiter but i have to wait weeks to get it from europe, and who knows how it will perform and how to fix/test it since i only have one M camera.

I know it did not want to spend much anymore, but i might have to bite the bullet and go with one of 3 options:

1.) a local guy is selling a Leica iiF with a Leitz Summarit 5cm f1.5. together for $700. I can probably try to talk down the price? Its hard to tell the quality of the lens on the picture, but it seems to be aesthetically in great shape overall.

2.) Someone slightly further away is selling a Zeiss Planar ZM 50mm f2 for $575. I have read that the quality of this Zeiss outperforms the Leica counterpart.

3.) Last option is a Collapsible Leitz 50mm f2 for about $225. However with possible slight haze and dust inside.

 

Now the questions is which is a better option for my M3? The one with superior light gathering capabilities with a bonus vintage camera attached. Or a modern, new, and sharp lens, with less low light capabilities??? Or just a classic?

Edited by Aguilera85
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Summarit 50 1.5 needs to be carefully checked for haze, fungus and scratches. With flashlight light from back and front and under angle. The glass on this lens is extremely soft. And original filters are "strange". To get common filter on, you'll need adapter ring, which is available on eBay from time to time. If lens is clean, the f1.5 is usable only in the middle of the frame and it is going to be glovy.

At f2-2.8 it is very nice Leitz made lens, which adds character to the image.

 

Aperture was around f2.8 for this one:

 

19046710236_f719ef947c.jpg

 

But if you like color film the modern Planar might be better. It is sharp, well corrected lens. Personally, I would not compare it with Leica and Leitz made 50 f2. Different handling and character (if any from Planar). Planar ZM is the safest lens to get and it just take sharp images. Always.    

 

Leitz collapsible 50 f2 could be different lens. I used almost all of them. Uncoated Summar, Summitar (the biggy) and Collapsible Cron in M mount.

If $225 is for the Cron and it doesn't have big damage on lenses, take it and run! Mine was cleaned after fungus, lenses where not it the best shape, but it is the only 50mm lens I'm missing.

 

16469854775_ba49c65cbe.jpg

 

Aperture was something like f4 and light coming from window.

 

Summar is great for anything with light behind, because it is uncoated lens. Snap on, old filters, some with screw which is damaging lens exterior. This is with Summar attached to close up adapter on Leica IIf. Film was ISO50 and aperture was f8 to get face in focus at close distance. 

 

12786167074_726e374404.jpg

 

Summitar 50 f2 is big lens. Some are liked it more than collapsible Summicron. It also needs adapter ring for normal filters. Aperture was around f5.6 to have what I need in focus.

 

11060683003_0386ab790a.jpg

 

As you could see the f1.5 and f2 are not something I was in rush to use. With film and portraits you have to avoid these apertures,  simply because it is not enough DoF for portrait.

 

If you want to know more about old Leitz 50mm lenses read this book: https://leicarumors.com/2011/12/22/download-the-old-version-of-leica-lens-compendium-by-erwin-puts-for-free.aspx/

IMO, it is very correct description of those lenses. 

 

One more thing. Not all of old Leitz 50mm lenses are easy to focus on M bodies. If I remember correct, Summar was the worse. At minimum focus distance the focus tab was at 12.

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Any of the lenses you mentioned would be fine on your camera....the M3 was basically designed around 50mm usage. Having said that, I still think you might encounter issues, being new to RF cameras, regarding portraits at wide apertures due to the narrow DOF.  Of course you can always stop down a couple of notches, but that brings you back into the realm you have with your present lens. Personally I like the 50/2 collapsible as long as it is a really clean example with no haze, scratches, or cleaning marks. Years ago I ran a series of shots on the same live but static subject partially in the shade and partially in the sun using  50mm lenses I had on hand, a collapsible Summicron, a Noctilux, an early Summilux, and a modern Summicron, printed them all on one sheet for comparison and spent about 2 weeks deciding which of these lenses worked best for this subject/lighting. Surprise, it was the old collapsible Summicron...not the sharpest nail in the bag, but the most pleasing rendition with reasonable DOF (no bokeh in the shots to compare). A couple of years later I sold everything but the two Summicrons, one for classic renditions and one for razor sharp renditions. If you're willing to go out on a limb and short on cash I can suggest a clean 50/1.9 Canon Serenar collapsible, an even better lens, which I think rivals the 50 Summicrons in many respects is the 50/1.8 Canon Serenar or for a little bit more money and razor sharpness stopped down 1 notch is the Nikkor 50/2 HC, all in Leica screw mount with an adapter for M bodies.

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Thank you so much for the help guys. In the end I went with what was closer to my location and met with the seller of the Summarit. I'm glad to say the lens is in impeccable condition! Absolutely no haze or dust inside the lens, and no surface scratches on the front lens either.it looks like it just came out of the factory this year! The only blemish is small indentation on the edge of the lens metal. Barely noticeable. The only drawback of that is that I won't be able to use filters on it. But I was not planning to anyways.

I have to admit that I almost went out of my way to spend on a modern fast lens like the Voigtlander 1.5 or 1.1... but I am extremely happy by the condition of this Summitar and can't wait to finish my current B&W roll and see the results.

I will post an image of my new combo on the " I love my M3" thread. And the film images on "I love film"

Edited by Aguilera85
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Sounds like you might have found a good solution, but the proof is in the pictures.

 

One suggestion from a four decade Leica M shooter, shoot at least 10, or even 100 rolls before you buy something new for your kit.  This will ensure there are no issues with what you have, and you'll learn how to get the most out of it.

 

Your budget has run its course, and you should be good now for the summer.  After you have saved up some more, keep your eye open at the LA and OC camera shows, buy & sell section at this site, craigslist, and ebay for a clean Summicron.  I found a nice Gen-III for $750 a little while back, so they can be found for less than a grand.  Be patient.

 

Eric

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I would ask D.A.G. if they could fix it. Glass and coating of this lens is softer than usual. Don't forget to cap it or keep on small apertures under bright sun. It is written in M3 manual for real reason.  

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I have the second version of the 50mm Summicron, the so-called Rigid. Mine was made in 1957 and is fantastic with B&W.

 

The glass is on the soft side so many have scratch & coating issues but when you find a good one it is a lens you can keep for life (and use on that Monochrome when you eventually get one!)

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Sounds like you might have found a good solution, but the proof is in the pictures.

 

One suggestion from a four decade Leica M shooter, shoot at least 10, or even 100 rolls before you buy something new for your kit.  This will ensure there are no issues with what you have, and you'll learn how to get the most out of it.

 

Your budget has run its course, and you should be good now for the summer.  After you have saved up some more, keep your eye open at the LA and OC camera shows, buy & sell section at this site, craigslist, and ebay for a clean Summicron.  I found a nice Gen-III for $750 a little while back, so they can be found for less than a grand.  Be patient.

 

Eric

 

 

I would ask D.A.G. if they could fix it. Glass and coating of this lens is softer than usual. Don't forget to cap it or keep on small apertures under bright sun. It is written in M3 manual for real reason.  

 

Summicron-C 40mm f/2 is a lower cost Leica option with a sterling reputation that I can heartily recommend.

It is small, light and produces sharp images.

 

I have the second version of the 50mm Summicron, the so-called Rigid. Mine was made in 1957 and is fantastic with B&W.

 

The glass is on the soft side so many have scratch & coating issues but when you find a good one it is a lens you can keep for life (and use on that Monochrome when you eventually get one!)

 

Thanks for the help guys! 

I remember the advise about the soft lens this is. Fortunately i did a little research before getting back to film and learned the Sunny 16 rule. So most of the time in the daytime I'm at f16 or f8. I only open up the lens wide indoors while taking pictures of my family. I just sent my first roll of the Summarit with HP5 to the lab. So i am waiting to get that back this friday in order to inspect the performance of the lens. Im in the middle of a second roll right  now. Of coarse i will continue to keep an eye out for modern lenses.

 

Is there a lens you guys recommend for color film? I will still try my luck with this lens and some Portra 400 that i am waiting to get in the mail in the meantime.

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Is there a lens you guys recommend for color film? I will still try my luck with this lens and some Portra 400 that i am waiting to get in the mail in the meantime.

 

It really depends on what rendition you are seeking and your subject matter. I used a 35/2.8 Summaron for almost 30 years with color slides (Kodachrome) and it performed really well in all instances. I got a much more modern 35 Summicron and Summilux a few years ago and they were fantastic, in the sense that the images were crisp and sharp across the frame, but I still preferred the Summaron and ended up selling the others. The 135 Tele-Elmar is one I've used a lot with color film and had great results. I've had several 90s as well, and they all work well for portraits, color and B&W.

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Is there a lens you guys recommend for color film?

 

My M3 has the original collapsible Summicron 5cm f2.0, and it does beautiful color photos, especially stopped down to F4 or F5.6.  If the subject is a bright object with a dark background and you're spot metering on the bright object, this lens gives the nicest "glow" that is almost cliché to mention, but it is really pretty to look at.  Don't turn your nose up an older Leica lenses, or you might miss out on some amazing photography.

 

Scott

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