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Bad news for the SL.


Csacwp

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I don't expect "perfection" in equipment or in service, as I don't really believe it is practicable.  The trick, I think, is to work out how to make the gear you like work for you (if it doesn't, ditch it for something else).  Leica's approach to its cameras and its user interface is consistent with my photography background (manual film cameras), so using its digital cameras is easy and a pleasant experience (apart from the cost of entry).

 

I have had almost every Leica camera I have owned, and many of the lenses, go wrong at some stage.  The M9 had some weird firmware problem which required a trip back to Solms, the Monochrom will need a new sensor before too long, the M Edition 60 kept locking up and I had a total failure of my SL (it was an early camera).  In almost every case, I contacted Customer Service, they booked the camera in, and the longest part of the process was the shipping.  In the case of the SL, the dealer gave me their (only) demo model and Leica just replaced the camera as soon as they could.

 

I understand the complaints, but at the same time I accept that using a niche camera maker with a small market share, these problems will arise.  I know Leicas are expensive and it shouldn't happen, but even large manufacturers have their slip ups (the oil pump failed on my VW, seizing the engine - VW is the largest car maker in the world).  The test is how they respond to these issues - I've never had a problem, but then I have tried quite hard to find a way to make the system work for me.

 

Why go to the effort?  Because I like their products, and when I'm not having technical problems, the cameras and lenses are as close to perfection as I need.  When things go wrong, the world does not stop spinning.

 

I would like to see sustainability play a bigger role in Leica's product design - standardise the battery sizes and chargers, allow for in camera charging (if we go back to a USB port, which seems unlikely) and allow for hardware upgrades so that the "disposable" consumer electronics can match the life of the rest of the camera.  If I bought the M10, I would like to know that Leica will provide for continued electronic upgrades (sensor, motherboard and processor), so I could keep using that body until it failed, rather than the electronics becoming obsolete.

 

Cheers

John

Edited by IkarusJohn
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...Ever seen that sustainability is a topic in foto forums or magazines ? No, but isn't it strange ? Many are looking for untouched nature and beautiful places, but are using cameras that cause a lot of waste.

"Disposable" probably refers mainly to those who use their cameras professionally, and financially equates to either depreciated capex, or general opex.

It has little to do with the usability of the camera itself, unless it is either not robust enough for intended use, or has critical consumable components (such as batteries) that become unobtainable.

I have an original Canon 5D and a Sony A7R that still work quite happily. The A7R is particularly good for remote wifi control, which is where it gets most of its use.

Again, the reference to disposable, unless the camera is no longer operable, likely means that it passes into someone else's hands. New models do not make older models inoperable.

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Very true, Eoin.  

 

My comment (which I know you were not responding to) was in relation to Leica's failure to procure long term replacements for the M8 LCD.  I don't want to reheat that discussion - suffice to say that many here commented that digital cameras are more electronic device than handmade leather and brass film cameras for life of yore.  The argument was that Leica digital cameras were disposable consumer products.

 

To me, this is a sustainability issue.  In industrial settings, electronic componentry is supported with replacement parts and upgrades for many years, so such support is possible.  I hate the fact that my Leica cameras are made of brass and similar materials, they have expensive glass, leather and are hand assembled in the same way as the film "cameras for life" Leica used to boast about, yet the cameras are only as good as the weakest link (some cheap and apparently crappy electronic component).

 

I would like to see Leica extend the life of their digital cameras - the image quality and performance of the electronics has reached a plateau where any enhancement is marginal.  I'd happily use my SL or an M10 for the rest of my days; I'd just like Leica to give me the comfort that they will keep it running.  I don't have that confidence yet, and the thought of a $10,000 camera ending up in a landfill because some "consumer electronics" failed makes me feel rather ill.

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  • 3 weeks later...

...

I would like to see Leica extend the life of their digital cameras - the image quality and performance of the electronics has reached a plateau where any enhancement is marginal.  I'd happily use my SL or an M10 for the rest of my days; I'd just like Leica to give me the comfort that they will keep it running.  I don't have that confidence yet, and the thought of a $10,000 camera ending up in a landfill because some "consumer electronics" failed makes me feel rather ill.

 

 

I'd suggest using it for a decade, or more, and then reporting back. :)

 

My Olympus E-1 was manufactured in October 2003. I've had it for a decade. It's never been in for repair as far as I'm aware (it only had 3100 shutter actuations when I bought it). Olympus discontinued service for it in 2013. It's still working perfectly. I can't consider it a 'consumer disposable' at this point, although I won't cry if it croaks tomorrow. 

 

I suspect the Leica SL will be on the same order of quality. 

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I am just glad that the worst news (of this bad news thread) was that the firmware upgrade took so long to arrive.   :D

But now it's here and it's really changing the SL into a new camera with even more advanced features. 

And it's free !!  And I have fully electronic shutter even before many Sony fans have received their A9s.

 

Now I only need more native lenses   (28mm, smaller 50mm, macro 90 or 100mm)

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I would like to see Leica extend the life of their digital cameras - the image quality and performance of the electronics has reached a plateau where any enhancement is marginal.  I'd happily use my SL or an M10 for the rest of my days; I'd just like Leica to give me the comfort that they will keep it running.  I don't have that confidence yet, and the thought of a $10,000 camera ending up in a landfill because some "consumer electronics" failed makes me feel rather ill.

 

 

I used the DMR for ten years.

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Because I wanted to find out more about fully electronic shutters I had a look into the A9 manual. It was very interesting, because I start from more or less zero.

The A9 can use the ordinary shutter for single images and automatically uses the FES for shooting series. I asked myself why ? Well simply because the mechanical shutter can only support 5 fps (like the a7 cameras). This is quite weak for a top-end sports camera.

Does the A9 sensor have a global shutter ? I am not sure, but AFAIK just as the SL it does not.

 

So I assume (I have seen only a few examples) that the sensor has the typical flaws (of a sensor without global shutter). So is it such a good idea to use only the FES ?   Not really (but this is just my guess, some professional sports photogs will know better).

Also FES cannot be used in special situations like LENR, with flash (or slow bulbs) with adapted lenses (they say that, I wonder why not) and others.

 

So after a short glance I am quite happy with the SL - especially since I got the additional functionality without any additional cost.

But this is just my (biased) opinion - and some specialists will probably prove me wrong.    :D    

 

By the way I have used FES on the SL with all types of lenses, SL and M or R or even alien manual lenses, or with the AF adapted Canon/Sigma lenses. Seems to work ok for all of them. (with the typical flaws described higher up in this thread).

And it is REALLY noiseless because the lenses are also noiseless, even the SL lenses (but of course not the AF adapted lenses because their AF is not completely free of noise).

Edited by steppenw0lf
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I was interested to understand how long it takes a sensor to "get" a single image in FES mode.

For the alpha a7R II it is well known - it is about 1/14th of a second   (don't ask me, there are specialists for that - Kasson and others)

For the A9 there are several guesses  from  1/30th of a second to  1/300th of a second   (why ? because it is 20 times faster which results in a 1/300th). But in reality Sony says the A9 is 25% percent faster than the a7 cameras  (again I do not know what exactly they mean by that, what they are referring to. I just believe what Sony writes.)  And if it was 1/300th which is faster than the mechanical shutter (which is used for flash), then probably Sony would be using that for flash. (But they don't, so I assume it is much slower - again you are right I am not the specialist so could be completely wrong)

 

For the SL I also found no value how long it takes - maybe anybody knows ?

So again a lot of questions, but "bad news" .......    not really.

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Competition is good as long as Leica responds with an updated model.

 

Not everyone needs the faster frame rate, PDAF or IBIS but some do.  The a9 doesn't interest me because I've become accustomed to the a7rII's 42MP, but given Sony's history of adding an R model to the basic camera I'll be watching future developments closely.  A Leica SL.r with IBIS would also grab my attention.

 

After the firmware upgrade I am very happy that Leica succeeded to update the existing model.

I know that for you IBIS is crucial, and you wait to get a SL with IBIS. But for me IBIS is not critical, I can live with OIS - while I could not buy a new model every 1 or 2 years.

So for me Leica followed an excellent strategy - while for you it is probably not helpful.

I think for a small company this is the best strategy to survive - while for mega-companies it is much better to frequently change their models - they get a lot of attention and additional turn-around and have more possibilities to squeeze life out of the competition. First selling a lot of upgraded new models, and second their second-hand bodies make life for the competition even harder.

If you think a little bit, you will easily agree that "competition" is usually only good for the strongest competitor. (The weaker members are usually not stating this sort of nonsense.)

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Maybe I am a bit 'thick' but it seems to me that when the question is asked 'will this camera' make this other camera(s) redundant etc etc the 'elephant in the room' question that has to be adressed is will this new camera make me like its feature set enough to ALSO sell my existing lenses and existing body - in order to switch out of the total system?

 

So my response to the question is how does the Sony make my Leica 24-90 or 90-280 lenses redundant? Does the Sony body and its chip set significantly 'beat'  the image IQ I can get out of the SL and the Leica Zooms ? Further questions arise whioch make it even harder to THINK about switching let alone switch...

 

eg does the A9 offer better ergonomics in my hands than the SL? Will my Zeiss Otus lenses or Noctilux or my M lenses work better /same/wrose on Sony than the SL?

 

So NO ....the Sony anything that comes out is unlikely to see me dump the SL or its lenses.

 

As for  the inevitable next thread about the Sony A9 r camera and its megapixel advantage - I will answer in the same way are these megapixels as good as the Sony 50 I get from my XID? - are the Sony lenses going to be as good as the FujiBlad lenses I ahve already invested in?

 

the ONLY reason I can think of switching OUT of a system despite heavy investment in lenses - is when one loses confidence in a company's future direction or product or service - to this end Leica has to wake up and understand that when they charge premiums for products - there is an expectation that the quality of product and service is also significantly better than alternative manufacturers.

 

With regards the S system - Leica have disapointed and enraged far too many clients - they have damaged the brand name big time. This is the only 'risk' that I am forced to price in further commitment to Leica - SL or no SL - and it is a risk that Leica should never foisted on its customers.

 

If a manufacturer can deliver a better camera and better lenses ( good luck) as well as clearly better service and quality - then they can challenge Leica - and Leica have left the door open on that question - no room to make a similar mistake with SL or M cameras.

Edited by PeterGA
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Odd - Sony seems to think Leica got it right - 24mp.

Nothing wrong with wanting more pixels, but this is hardly evidence that the market see more pixels as vital.

I see this as evidence that Leica got it right 18 months before anyone else. They are pretty well a match in features, though Sony includes PDAF, IBIS instead of OIS, and faster frame rate. I look forward to see how well they work in practice: focus speed and accuracy, IS with non-native lenses, and how much demand there is for that frame rate.

Competition is good

 

But it's not a Leica.

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