Jeff S Posted April 4, 2017 Share #21 Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica would help itself by publishing the ACTUAL AF breakdown incidence: if it is really small, then expectant repair makes eminent sense, on the other hand if it is say greater than 15-20%, then prophylactic repair should be mandated. Just a thought... Albert Yes, and more. As I've commented, the issue has always been as much about transparent and timely communication as it has been about policy. This includes the cause(es), the solution(s), the frequency, the repair cost (or an explanation if this is difficult to commit), and a service turnaround goal (recognizing that can't be rigid). I also wonder when the 5 year clock starts ticking..... from sale as new? What if one buys used? Jeff Edited April 4, 2017 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here AF Drive Problems Leica S Lenses: Official Statement by Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
leicapages Posted April 4, 2017 Share #22 Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Leica has just released an official statement about the AF drive problems of some Leica S lenses Leica offers free replacement of the autofocus drive unit … - up to 5 years after purchase of the lens - if the lens is affected by this issue Uh? This defect is inherent in its design and thus should not be limited to the 5 year period. That is at the very least not very customer friendly. I also do not recall there was a time limit set on replacement of the corroded M9/M-E sensor. Edited April 4, 2017 by leicapages 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted April 4, 2017 Share #23 Posted April 4, 2017 5 years is dissappointing for people who entered the S system early. There were no AF issues with the S2 and no (or few?) with s006 in the beginning. Only recently when S007 came up Leica changed things in AF software and finally lenses failed. I really hope for Leica that they will handle this very flexible and will not insist on the 5 year limit. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted April 4, 2017 Share #24 Posted April 4, 2017 The damage was done, probably due to a faulty part that has now been replaced. Even if many have been affected, you cannot expect a full recall of all lenses. I don't know what you would have expected of preventive measures? The preventive measure is that you can have the part changed, probably at a fraction of the cost of the lens, and far less than it has lost in value due to this issue. Policy better before? Not for me when I am going to China and Karakoram Highway the coming summer: I want to make sure the the 2 or 3 lenses that I bring will be working. Not for the pro on the set or in studio with a hired model, who cannot afford a breakdown during the shoot. Get over it, there is a solution, finally. If you can live on the edge, feel free, if you want to be sure, pay what it costs, that's life. And in the end it will benefit all owners who have not given up on the system. Do you work for Leica ? Thats two ridiculous comments in a row . Lets establish what the real problem is first . The original AF module (including the plastic gear that strips) was designed for the S2 . Some lenses did fail but most didn t . It was after the S 007 was released with faster AF and the firmware was updated on the S 006 . At this point the load became too much for the AF gear and it stripped frequently . New lenses that were stiff or moved a lot of elements failed early . The 120 and 24 failed frequently when brand new . I have 9 Leica S lenses . My dealer who has more experience with this issue than anyone on this forum (because he has a lot of S customers ) ...predicted which lenses would fail BEFORE we mounted them . Five of the lenses failed immediately ....another two after some modest use . Two more to go . It didn t bother me a lot because I wasn t dependent on these lenses ..but friends went thru more than a year WITH NO SOLUTION . Since equipment upgrades come at least every 4 years even in MF ....thats out of service for 25% of the useful life . (I will not rehash the fiasco Leica USA had over the last year due to their botched SAP implementation ). But they actually LOST my friends 70mm S lens . In the past ..my Leica S lenses were fixed in a reasonable 6-8 weeks and none of my repaired lenses have failed . I was not charged in any way and my dealer handled the whole mess . The NEW POLICY is a bad joke ...... 5 years from new ? the original S2 was being sold more than 5 years ago ....so all those original lenses were out of warranty ? Even though the failure was caused by the new AF speeds of the S 007 and updated S 006 . This is not a wear and tear issue ..its a AF module that will not handle the load . WAIT UNTIL THEY FAIL ..when you have a known DEFECT or pay for the fix . I have a nice trip to Ireland end of summer ...will be very unhappy if any of my S lenses fail . This level of customer abuse is unprecedented even for Leica ! Now they have backed themselves into a corner ..issuing the policy statement . Maybe next time they should speak with some of their STORE Managers rather than dreaming up policy around the expresso machine in Wetzler . FYI I have been using Leica gear since I was a teen ager ....a long time ago ... and have pretty much everything for the M,S,SL and Q . So I am vested in how they treat their customers . 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted April 4, 2017 Share #25 Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Wow I should have expected as much . Comment after comment without any relevant knowledge . Its NOT OK ..this could kill whats left of the S user group . How dare you tell us to “Get Over It” ! When I purchased my first S camera ...I set up an email list with 8 very knowledgable photographers that all used the S system . These were the guys that put down $30K 6-7 years ago . Whenever I encounter an issue I send them an message and vis versa .....we use different dealers...are located all over the world . Its the best system I have ever used and cost is not an issue . However ..not a one of those original adopters would ever recommend an S to a friend ! The AF failure has hit every single photographer(on my list) ..most with several and some with multiple return trips . Again as I said it began to happen much more frequently once the S 007 came out (although its not limited to just this body ). The PROBLEM has been known now for months maybe over a year ..you can find a photo of the AF module with the failed gear someplace on this forum . Some users in asia actually repaired the AF module themselves with a stronger gear . Its NOT A FEW BAD PARTS..thats total BS ..brand new lenses made in 2016 failed right out of the box . Its a design that did not anticipate the requirements of future faster AF systems. Hope that someone from Leica reads this ..... Edited April 4, 2017 by glenerrolrd 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #26 Posted April 5, 2017 hey, let's move this to the 'Bash the S' thread please... It's created especially for us by some dude... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 5, 2017 Share #27 Posted April 5, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) FWIW, I had been using my 35mm lens for 2 years on the S2 when it failed... It was a used lens that I bought end of 2014 so potentially it might have been used on a S006 as well before I bought it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted April 5, 2017 Share #28 Posted April 5, 2017 Glad that the policy is set. I can easily live with this set of promises. Leica would help itself by publishing the ACTUAL AF breakdown incidence: if it is really small, then expectant repair makes eminent sense, on the other hand if it is say greater than 15-20%, then prophylactic repair should be mandated. Just a thought... Albert Albert which manufacturer has ever done that? It seems an unrealistic expectation to me at least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 5, 2017 Share #29 Posted April 5, 2017 Albert which manufacturer has ever done that? It seems an unrealistic expectation to me at least.. How about Fuji issuing notice with actual serial numbers, no time limit and free of charge.... https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1630675364/fuji-advisory Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 5, 2017 Share #30 Posted April 5, 2017 . How about Fuji issuing notice with actual serial numbers, no time limit and free of charge.... https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1630675364/fuji-advisory Jeff Fuji is not necessarily the golden standard either. I was an early adopter of X-T1. It came with mushy buttons and light leaks... Fuji USA acknowledged the light leaks and offered a fix for free but Fuji (at least Fuji USA) never acknowledged the mushy buttons and never offered a fix, not even against payment, quite a few people explicitly asked... I had 3 Fuji cameras, it was an easy call, bye bye Fuji... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #31 Posted April 5, 2017 . How about Fuji issuing notice with actual serial numbers, no time limit and free of charge.... https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1630675364/fuji-advisory Jeff Next come the 'small workshop, small establishment, small company, small resources and small etc etc but big big heart and big big big commitment...' statement. It will never end... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #32 Posted April 5, 2017 Fuji is not necessarily the golden standard either. I was an early adopter of X-T1. It came with mushy buttons and light leaks... Fuji USA acknowledged the light leaks and offered a fix for free but Fuji (at least Fuji USA) never acknowledged the mushy buttons and never offered a fix, not even against payment, quite a few people explicitly asked... I had 3 Fuji cameras, it was an easy call, bye bye Fuji... mushy button... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 5, 2017 Share #33 Posted April 5, 2017 The preventive replacement is apparently around $400: http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/04/leica-announces-fix-for-s-lens-focus-motors/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #34 Posted April 5, 2017 d The preventive replacement is apparently around $400: http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/04/leica-announces-fix-for-s-lens-focus-motors/ Do it in Shanghai, one of them small dirty workshop for 150rmb... 20bucks USD. changed into a brass gear that will never slip.. but probably screw up the lens in the long run... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 5, 2017 Share #35 Posted April 5, 2017 Albert which manufacturer has ever done that? It seems an unrealistic expectation to me at least.. Olympus has followed a similar approach to Fuji on multiple occasions... https://www.olympus-europa.com/site/en/c/cameras_support/repair_service/service_announcements/index.jsp Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlingmm Posted April 5, 2017 Share #36 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Do you work for Leica ? Thats two ridiculous comments in a row . Lets establish what the real problem is first . The original AF module (including the plastic gear that strips) was designed for the S2 . Some lenses did fail but most didn t . It was after the S 007 was released with faster AF and the firmware was updated on the S 006 . At this point the load became too much for the AF gear and it stripped frequently . New lenses that were stiff or moved a lot of elements failed early . The 120 and 24 failed frequently when brand new . I have 9 Leica S lenses . My dealer who has more experience with this issue than anyone on this forum (because he has a lot of S customers ) ...predicted which lenses would fail BEFORE we mounted them . Five of the lenses failed immediately ....another two after some modest use . Two more to go . It didn t bother me a lot because I wasn t dependent on these lenses ..but friends went thru more than a year WITH NO SOLUTION . Since equipment upgrades come at least every 4 years even in MF ....thats out of service for 25% of the useful life . (I will not rehash the fiasco Leica USA had over the last year due to their botched SAP implementation ). But they actually LOST my friends 70mm S lens . In the past ..my Leica S lenses were fixed in a reasonable 6-8 weeks and none of my repaired lenses have failed . I was not charged in any way and my dealer handled the whole mess . The NEW POLICY is a bad joke ...... 5 years from new ? the original S2 was being sold more than 5 years ago ....so all those original lenses were out of warranty ? Even though the failure was caused by the new AF speeds of the S 007 and updated S 006 . This is not a wear and tear issue ..its a AF module that will not handle the load . WAIT UNTIL THEY FAIL ..when you have a known DEFECT or pay for the fix . I have a nice trip to Ireland end of summer ...will be very unhappy if any of my S lenses fail . This level of customer abuse is unprecedented even for Leica ! Now they have backed themselves into a corner ..issuing the policy statement . Maybe next time they should speak with some of their STORE Managers rather than dreaming up policy around the expresso machine in Wetzler . FYI I have been using Leica gear since I was a teen ager ....a long time ago ... and have pretty much everything for the M,S,SL and Q . So I am vested in how they treat their customers . No, I don't work for Leica. But like you, I am heavily invested in the S system, and I love it. Like you I think it is a scandal that this happened, and that it has taken so long time to correct, and to inform about it. I have been worried that this would kill the whole system, and wipe out my investment. So, we finally have a solution, but at a cost. We do not have eternal guarantee, but the lenses will be repaired if they fail within 5 years from purchase. Some people expect a full callback and repair of ALL lenses, which is probably not feasible due to the number of failures, and costs. Some people expect eternal guarantees, without knowledge of what this would actualye cost in terms of stock, OEM contracts +++. In fact we have a similar solution to the sensor problem on the M. So we have a choice. You have 9 lenses, I have only 6. Let's for the arguments sake say that this (including body) has cost me 50.000 usd (if it had all been bought new, which again it isn't). 1 lens is already repaired with new solution, so if I send in 5 for 400 usd each, I will pay 2000 usd for getting my whole system secure. That is what I pay for insurance for 1 year, and probably much less than what the lenses have lost in value due to this problem. Sure, I would have hoped this had never happened. But I can live with this cost, as long as the system works and continues, and my whole investment is protected. Shit happens. If you want to spend your life hating Leica, feel free. I want to, like you, travel with my system, feeling confident that it works. Maybe I should not say "get over it", more "move forward". Edited April 5, 2017 by erlingmm Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted April 5, 2017 Share #37 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Guys you mis interpreted what I said which was in reply to Albert's post. Glad that the policy is set. I can easily live with this set of promises. Leica would help itself by publishing the ACTUAL AF breakdown incidence: if it is really small, then expectant repair makes eminent sense, on the other hand if it is say greater than 15-20%, then prophylactic repair should be mandated. Just a thought... Albert Albert which manufacturer has ever done that? It seems an unrealistic expectation to me at least. That is in response to.....which manufacturer has published the ACTUAL AF breakdown incidence.But I get it that you are very dissatisfied and my opinion is different (and my experience with my lenses so far) that's fine. All the best. Edited April 5, 2017 by hoppyman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmx_2 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #38 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) I'm rather new to the S-system (bought my S 006 used in Janaury) but I really like the system. Because of sensor corrosion I had to send the camera to Wetzlar for repair and along I sent my Summarit 70 (since I knew that there now is a permanent fix). CS has been extremely responsive (answered my first email within the hour) and all in all I was out of my camera and lens for less than 3 weeks. When they dissassembled the camera it had some shock damage inside from a previous owner (which my insurance will cover) so I had to pay some of the repair, but the lens got fixed without any charge (new AF-motor, CLA) and they also changed the sensor without any cost. One lug had to be changed and I also decided to change the top cover of the camera (it was quite scratched). The camera and lens now look almost brand new and works absolutely flawless! I don't have to worry about the AF issue and if I decide to sell the camera and lens it has already been fixed and that woudl for me at least be a strong buying argument. So I can only praise the service I have recieved! For the camera repair I paid about 800€ (top cover was 400€ extra), they sent me a UPS note, picked up the camera at my house and delivered just as smooth. Regarding the AF issue in general I can fully understand people's concern. I personally think the repair should come without the time limit, but I don't think Leica CS will be so hard on it. Working in a completely other business (heavy industrial diesel engines) but with experience of service and warranty handling (I was service manager for our company for almost 3 years) I can understand the policy. I don't think Leica should do a full recall, we wouldn't do in a similair situation. Nevertherless I can understand the frustration for pros, but on the otherhand, the cost for a "preemptive repair" at 400US dollars sounds to me very fair. Any product you buy will always see improvements over it's life cycle but the early bird adopters will normally never benefit from the "latest and greatest" updates. If I were a pro I would approach my local dealer where I bought my gear and talk to them about splitting/taking some of the reapir cost. Edited April 5, 2017 by mmx_2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted April 5, 2017 Share #39 Posted April 5, 2017 Albert which manufacturer has ever done that? It seems an unrealistic expectation to me at least. The question is which manufacturer has changed the AF-algorithims in a way that make lenses fail? We could go so far and say "the older lenses are not compatible to the newer S-bodies and AF-software anymore". For me this is a "hidden failure" in the design. If Leica changes the AF algorithms they should make the change of the AF motor available for low price or no cost, and for sure they should not limit the free repair of failures to 5 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlingmm Posted April 5, 2017 Share #40 Posted April 5, 2017 The question is which manufacturer has changed the AF-algorithims in a way that make lenses fail? We could go so far and say "the older lenses are not compatible to the newer S-bodies and AF-software anymore". For me this is a "hidden failure" in the design. If Leica changes the AF algorithms they should make the change of the AF motor available for low price or no cost, and for sure they should not limit the free repair of failures to 5 years. I don't think the AF algorithm has changed in itself, just getting faster, which may have revealed a weakness in then mechanism that was not visible on The S2, so not an incompatibility in a traditional sense. Just my theory, have no inside info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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