Leica 5370: a Leica TL with an integrated viewfinder to be announced in 2017?

[ropo54]

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If they came out with a T that had a built in EVF, how would that affect sales of the Leica Q? It seems unlikely that Leica would alter the T in order to essentially replicate the Q with interchangeable lenses.

 

 

The T, as configured, competes with the whole X series of cameras. The future TL, with viewfinder, does not nor will it compete with the Q, as the Q is full frame! 

 

Rather, the future TL must compete with all other manufacturers who produce aspc sensors, include an evf in their offerings, and have 24mp sensors and fast AF. That's the competition.

 

My guess is that the TL is going to be a wonderful new offering!

[Sean ASA]

The thing I like most about the T is the slim body design. If they change it to include a built in viewfinder, it will alter that quite a bit plus will be a small tiny viewfinder plus the price would increase by at least the cost of the current EVF. There is no win win on this. I curse sometimes at the external EVF, but then I love the rest of the design. But also keep in mind, the new M10 is made to use the same EVF. More likely that won't change with the new T.

 

I thought that too, but I'm not really missing the VF. There is a certain freedom in being able to hold the camera at angles that a VF makes impossible. 

 

As mentioned for me its a must but thats because I'm a little long sighted and really need to stretch the camera away to use the rear screen. As for slimness, the Lumix GX7 was a slim camera and had a very comfortable tilting EVF, so it doesn't have to compromise the lovely design.  

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[Guest VVJ]

I do not think built-in EVF adds any value, because it increases the size and cost of the camera. However, an updated external EVF for the TL, with higher resolution and better refresh rate, is welcome. 

 

I do believe it would add value.  It would also make the TL more appealing to a large group of potential users who otherwise would not even consider the TL...

 

From a user point of view it would actually make sense to have two types of bodies: a body similar to the current TL with external EVF and a more traditional like mini-SL type of body with built-in EVF.

 

Not sure whether the TL user base would be large enough to support that but Fuji also has 3 X bodies.

 

 

However, an updated external EVF for the TL, with higher resolution and better refresh rate, is welcome. 

 

That ain't going to happen IMHO.  Releasing the M10 with an old EVF and then releasing a new EVF for the TL infuriating the M10 owners, I don't believe so...

Edited June 20, 2017 by JorisV

[LocalHero1953]

Look, we're all agreed on what we want. A TL with a built in high quality EVF in a slim body.

It's just up to the engineers to deliver it, right?

What else are engineers for?

 

Edit. Oh yes, more pixels as well.

Edited June 20, 2017 by LocalHero1953

[crf59]

For what it's worth, both the silver and black TLs now show as "closeout" at Adorama in the US. This usually means something new is on the way. I really hope they don't abandon the T series. I just sold all my DSLR gear because I have grown to really like the T and lenses - but sure would like a newer sensor and built in EVF.

[tritentrue]

My wish list:

1/8000

PDAF

24MP/no OLPF

More robust mount

Full function + AF-C with Novoflex SL/NIK adapter

Weather resistance

DNG-only option

Zero viewfinder blackout/auto-playback

Full-time EVF-only option

 

Similar form factor and same Visoflex are ok for me.  I'm fairly content with the current model if the new one doesn't offer sufficient incentive to upgrade.

 

 

 

 

[ropo54]

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Look, we're all agreed on what we want. A TL with a built in high quality EVF in a slim body.

It's just up to the engineers to deliver it, right?

What else are engineers for?

 

Edit. Oh yes, more pixels as well.

 

 

To those familiar with the movie Field of Dreams: "If you build it they will come"!

[vondraussen]

In Leica's statutory accounts of 2015 Leica states that there was a large drop-off in sales in the T in that year that was unexpected. So from a business perspective Leica is under pressure with this update.

 

From a production point of view, Leica has been trying to build commonality into its line-up, while extending the product ranges very significantly (M-TL-S-SL-X), especially for such a relatively small company. It looks a bit like the car industry, where more commonality between different models also allows the production of many body shapes.

 

One commonality is the image processor, the "Maestro" family. I am sure this is expensive to develop, especially since Leica camera volumes are low. I would expect the Maestro II to be in the new TL. Members here have already mentioned the new sensor, and this also seems obvious and goes with the new image processor, since more information from the sensor requires a faster image processor for handling the additional information. I cannot see that the form factor would change (the TL design idea is a camera which feels like a smartphone) and therefore that there would be an EVF. Again in terms of commonality, my (uninformed) guess is that Leica considers that there is commonality between the M and the TL regarding the use of the external view finder. So the external viewfinder can be seen as a separate product line for use with M and TL. Given that the M did not include a hybrid viewfinder, or an option of an M with an electronic viewfinder (an "M-EVF") my guess is that this will stay that way. I would therefore expect, at some point maybe relatively soon, an upgrade to the external viewfinder. Again this would be made feasible with the faster image processor. Of course it would be fantastic to see the SL EVF as an external viewfinder, I am not sure whether that is a technological possibility.

 

Aside from sensor + Maestro II + better external EVF (quite possibly later) I would think that, as it always has done historically, Leica will try and improve the shooting/handling experience. One might for example see an upgrade to the back display in terms of brightness and resolution, so that it is easier and faster to use under more challenging light conditions. This seems quite likely to me too, since the T was introduced 3 years ago and so Leica should find improved displays on the market now. I think the touch function of the screen could also be improved. It would be nice to see a swivel or tilt-screen, and I am sure Leica must have considered such an option, but there are likely to be trade-offs in terms of the robustness of the physical mechanism and the additional space required, so I am not sure it would happen. In my view a simple tilt up would be nice, that would already be a fantastic improvement I think from a shooting perspective. 

 

Lastly, I would guess that video capability could be improved to the same level as the SL, since the electronics will be quite similar.

 

I think over time the TL will morph more into a phone. Whether it will already have phone capabilities in July, I doubt very much, but from the Huawei collaboration I think it would be attractive to have a TL which has phone data capabilities (not voice). That would allow immediate uploading and photo management. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by vondraussen

[Apoqualia]

If they are smart, they will leave EVF out of equation, and offer it as an external option. Then they may update current Visoflex.

If they are less smart, and issue a TL with an EVF, then they should save their wits and allow a model without an EVF.  

EVF-ed camera increases the cost significantly, pushes the TL concept further out of reach of people, and that makes no sense. But because the T was relatively affordable, thanks to optional EVF which reduced the cost, people decided to invest into the system. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Apoqualia

[ropo54]

If they are smart, they will leave EVF out of equation, and offer it as an external option. Then they may update current Visoflex.

If they are less smart, and issue a TL with an EVF, then they should save their wits and allow a model without an EVF.  

EVF-ed camera increases the cost significantly, pushes the TL concept further out of reach of people, and that makes no sense. But because the T was relatively affordable, thanks to optional EVF which reduced the cost, people decided to invest into the system. 

 

I doubt there will be 2 models built, and not having a built-in evf would be a mistake. I would doubt that anyone investing in the T system - expensive - is going to be trying to give it a go without an evf.  And, the last evf as an option was fairly pricey. I'm thinking built-in evf is what most people want and will not be more expensive than a separate external evf. 

I'm not sure that most would consider the T to be "relatively affordable", not when it is competing with Sony, Olympus, or any other manufacturers. The T retailed at $1800 USD and their lenses were similarly priced, and evfs were in the $500-600 range. Those prices are steep when everything is said and done. So, including the evf is not going to push the new T from "relatively affordable" to unaffordable!  People buying the T are going to pay and are going to expect to get their money's worth, if it is to be a success.

[lct]

If they are smart, they will leave EVF out of equation, and offer it as an external option. Then they may update current Visoflex.

If they are less smart, and issue a TL with an EVF, then they should save their wits and allow a model without an EVF.  

EVF-ed camera increases the cost significantly, pushes the TL concept further out of reach of people, and that makes no sense. But because the T was relatively affordable, thanks to optional EVF which reduced the cost, people decided to invest into the system. 

 

I could not agree less with respect. Chimping cameras are of zero interest to me and i don't want to be bothered by accessory viewfinders. I preferred the Fuji X-E2 due to the lack of built-in EVF of the T mainly. Was a mistake or a proof of technical incompetence to me and i do hope that Leica will address the issue with the next T body. YMMV.

[Guest VVJ]

If they are smart, they will leave EVF out of equation, and offer it as an external option. Then they may update current Visoflex.

If they are less smart, and issue a TL with an EVF, then they should save their wits and allow a model without an EVF.  

EVF-ed camera increases the cost significantly, pushes the TL concept further out of reach of people, and that makes no sense. But because the T was relatively affordable, thanks to optional EVF which reduced the cost, people decided to invest into the system. 

 

The T is not a cheap solution.  The 6 native lenses cost $12,680.  If the new body is going to cost $2,500 you are looking at $16K (Visoflex included).

 

For that type of money you could buy yourself a Hasselblad X1D or Fuji GFX with 2-3 lenses as well...

 

The T is only realitively cheap if you already own M-glass (or other legacy glass) and the Visoflex.

 

No offense but no EVF makes completely no sense to me.

[Apoqualia]

The T retailed at $1800 USD and their lenses were similarly priced, and evfs were in the $500-600 range. Those prices are steep when everything is said and done. So, including the evf is not going to push the new T from "relatively affordable" to unaffordable!  People buying the T are going to pay and are going to expect to get their money's worth, if it is to be a success.

 

If the price of a slow seller goes from $1800 to $2500, what is that called? A genius marketing move? 

The T is sold on sales, and the increased price will only make things worse. 

If Leica cannot keep the entry level price of an entry level system camera, even with new sensor and Image Processor which must be upgraded (it is considered ongoing cost) then they deserve a total debacle with the TL system.

That is why I believe that in addition to the EVF model of the TL, which may cost $2500, they should keep the current shape and form TL at $1800, but updated inside with new sensor and Image Processor. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Apoqualia

[ropo54]

If the price of a slow seller goes from $1800 to $2500, what is that called? A genius marketing move? 

The T is sold on sales, and the increased price will only make things worse. 

If Leica cannot keep the entry level price of an entry level system camera, even with new sensor and Image Processor which must be upgraded (it is considered ongoing cost) then they deserve a total debacle with the TL system.

That is why I believe that in addition to the EVF model of the TL, which may cost $2500, they should keep the current shape and form TL at $1800, but updated inside with new sensor and Image Processor. 

 

I suppose that's where we disagree on marketing, from a philosophical sense. If the product is superb at $2500, then people will pay the price. If it cuts corners and is $1800, they will not. 

 

It would be wonderful if they can deliver at $1800; but without a (built in) evf - which users must buy regardless! - the T will likely not sell as well as if it is would were it included.

 

We shall see!

[Louis]

According to rumors (!), if one can believe, the height of the upcoming T/TL will be 74.4 mm, meaning 5.7  higher than the actual T/TL; while the length and the depth are the same. I believe this may mean an integrated EVF.

 

In DPR, Ulrich who has some kind of "technical" or "research" association with Leica AG and receives new lenses and cameras before everybody else, has suggested that "It would be nice if the new TL had an integrated EVF and 24 MP",! This statement, in my mind, has a meaning, and I wonder if he knows something and is communicating  what the new TL would be!   

[Apoqualia]

According to rumors (!), if one can believe, the height of the upcoming T/TL will be 74.4 mm, meaning 5.7  higher than the actual T/TL; while the length and the depth are the same. I believe this may mean an integrated EVF.

 

In DPR, Ulrich who has some kind of "technical" or "research" association with Leica AG and receives new lenses and cameras before everybody else, has suggested that "It would be nice if the new TL had an integrated EVF and 24 MP",! This statement, in my mind, has a meaning, and I wonder if he knows something and is communicating  what the new TL would be!   

 

Considering "mere" 6mm difference, could it be that the new TL model may have a pop-out EVF, in the new Sony RX100 style?

 

The space where pop-out EVF is hidden (approx 1 inch deep and 1 inch wide cavity) is cleared out and components that were there rearranged, so the height of the camera had to be increased somewhat, and that extra volume of space corresponds to the volume of the pop-out EVF. That is why camera gains mere 6mm in height, because the EVF width is about 1/5 of the width of the camera; when extra volume is distributed across the width, it means the raise of 6mm just fits the bill ! 

 

However, with a "fixed" built-in EVF in the traditional Leica Q or M style, the height should have been increased even further, and that is not the case. 

 

So I think that may as well be the case — new TL with a pop-out EVF in Sony RX100 V style.

If I guessed it right, and calculated volume right, and the new TL comes as such, you may call me Mr Genius.   

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Apoqualia

[pop]

If they are smart, they will leave EVF out of equation, and offer it as an external option. ...

 

They did that with the first T which automatically disqalifies the camera for me. Its unwieldy with the finder attached, and attaching and removing the finder each time it goes into or out of the bag is not my idea of simple handling. Besides, the external EVF is not exactly cheap, raising the cost of the system by an uncomfortable margin.

[Belle123]

They did that with the first T which automatically disqalifies the camera for me. Its unwieldy with the finder attached, and attaching and removing the finder each time it goes into or out of the bag is not my idea of simple handling. Besides, the external EVF is not exactly cheap, raising the cost of the system by an uncomfortable margin.

I don't find the current T unwieldy at all. The M is, as is the SL even more so. Heavy and large. My smallest bag, the T fits in with viewfinder attached, no problems.

 

The cost of the next T, if has built in viewfinder, you can count on the increase being at least cost of current external EVF. The plus of the external EVF, now can be used on the M10, if one wants to upgrade to an M or have two systems that share both components and lenses. My guess is this is what Leica has in mind, but who can tell. Rumors don't count for much.

[floyd]

Never quite understand. People spend a lot of money on the camera body, even more money on a set of lenses, then a few hundred euro on the EVF is the deal breaker. For me the advance is the fact that it has the 90 degree movement for the very low shots.

Edited June 22, 2017 by floyd

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[Guest VVJ]

I don't find the current T unwieldy at all.

 

I think pop means unwieldy as in difficult to store due to the awkward shape with the Visoflex attached and I personally agree with that.  

 

 

The plus of the external EVF, now can be used on the M10, if one wants to upgrade to an M or have two systems that share both components and lenses. 

 

IMO Leica should design the best APS-C camera it can, a camera on par with Fuji and IMO that simply includes a built-in EVF.

 

Designing a camera purely for existing M-users would IMO be the wrong design and sales strategy.   That being said, the camera should support M-lenses better than any other non-Leica camera.

 

As always respectfully and YMMV.