Leica 5370: a Leica TL with an integrated viewfinder to be announced in 2017?

[Belle123]

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Think many here are lost in the weeds a bit that are disappointed. The TL is an entry level camera at an entry level price ...... for Leica. To expect it to have 'all', it would be a 4K priced camera, plus probably be quite larger and heavier.

 

I am just pleased they didn't up the price to $2500, which was rumored. For the current price, it's really quite nice. Could it be better? Of course. The loss of the flash is a bit of a head scratcher. But maybe that kept the price down. It isn't a camera for all situations. No camera is. That is why I have several cameras to choose from. But the T is the most fun of them all, even though every other camera I own is superior technically. Something about the T is addicting.

[ramarren]

Thorsten Overgaards's review of the TL2:

 

http://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-TL-mirrorless-digital-camera-review-and-user-report.html

 

 

Not a bad article, but Thorsten makes the same mistake here as he does elsewhere by claiming that the Leica M dates to 1925. It doesn't, the Leica M3 was introduced in 1953-1954. 

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[fastfashn]

"Think many here are lost in the weeds a bit that are disappointed." Well, at least some of them don't have a T, let alone an M, and are just trolling until they can make themselves happy by buying another plastic Canon at Best Buy. The camera is what it is, and the pudding is only good if you can take good pictures with... The pudding. Hmm. I need more coffee.

[Guest]

I was thinking it, TL2,  would be a great travel camera with the 18-56 and 55-135 zooms, when I don't want to take my M10. However a slightly higher TL with viewfinder (5370) would be even more enticing as I prefer a viewfinder or in the case of the M10 of course Rangefinder. It seems we have to wait until September for the 5370 announcement.

[Jkulin]

Well, I'm really quite disappointed: -

 

1. Still no bulb setting, for me it is really an important feature.

2. Removal of the flash, a very useful built-in feature for fill in.

3. No integrated Viewfinder

4. Do we really need ISO 50,000

5. The only reason they upgraded to 24MP was because of Sony dropping the 16MP

 

With Firmware 6.1 the speed meets all my needs, so can't really see the need for greater.

 

Leica need to grasp that the public need a full frame M sized camera with AF and interchangeable lenses, if only they had made the new TL a sister to the M but with AF then I would have switched without hesitation.

 

How long will we have to wait until Leica Listens to his customers?

+2

I absolutely agree with everything you said.... So now, no indoor photos with MF lenses!... I hate using a camera without a view finder, holding it in front of me (if I use the hot shoe for a flash!); and, I really don't care about ISO 50 000 either!.... 

 

I really hope the IQ is much improved!... This would be the only good thing that comes with this camera!....

 

The more I think about the new TL the more I think that Leica have not listened to its current owners one iota, to achieve the things on my wish list means that I will seriously have to look at the Hasselblad X1D, it seems to offer everything that I am looking for and had hoped that Leica would take into consideration.

 

So it now means that we will have to carry a flash permanently attached in place of the EVF and look a numpty trying to compose an image looking at the back of the camera.

[Guest]

The more I think about the new TL the more I think that Leica have not listened to its current owners one iota, to achieve the things on my wish list means that I will seriously have to look at the Hasselblad X1D, it seems to offer everything that I am looking for and had hoped that Leica would take into consideration.

 

So it now means that we will have to carry a flash permanently attached in place of the EVF and look a numpty trying to compose an image looking at the back of the camera.

 

But you are seriously not comparing the brand new TL to an X1D, that's like comparing a twin-prop with a nuclear bomber. APSC2 to Medium Format!

[Jkulin]

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But you are seriously not comparing the brand new TL to an X1D, that's like comparing a twin-prop with a nuclear bomber. APSC2 to Medium Format!

 

Yep you are right. the X1-D in my opinion offers me everything that the T/TL doesn't, and it is only slight larger, gorgeous to use and hold, offers a bulb setting, built in EVF, the ability to uise the EVF and flash at the same time. Of course it is a lot more, but I bought the T because of it's flexibility and weight (due to a bad back) then the X1D came out offering me everything apart from the bank balance to buy it, hoping that the price will come down over the next year.

[Sean ASA]

Celebraited highlight of SL the viewfinder, celebraited highlight of M10 the viewfinder, I simply don't understand how anyone would prefer a camera without a built in viewfinder, the tilt aspect maybe but the GX7/8 has that. No built in flash on a portable camera, useful for fill, enhancing portraits and night shots. And when you need the flash you can't use the VF, something that a EVF is useful for, seeing in the dark. Leica shooter trait being discrete, a lite up back screen illuminating your flash is not discrete, not to mention if you need a diopter adjustment, I'm only plus 0.5 but still struggle to read menus. Rear screen for a tripod if it tilts. Are there really that many iPhone users, with $2000 to spare on a camera and prepared to put their phone down for long enough to take a picture. How many of those prepared to buy this camera wouldn't if it had a VF, I suspect none. I don't get it, it's not as if it rivals the SL or the M, only the Q and given this camera with a lens is more expensive then a Q, there's no harm to Leica there anyhow. 

[fastfashn]

If you don't like the camera, don't buy it. Go buy a GX7/8, whatever that is. I'm not certain why people come on here and tell me and mine that I'm stupid to buy an XYZ. It's our choice, is it not? Hmmmm?

 

 "Yep you are right. the X1-D in my opinion offers me everything that the T/TL doesn't, and it is only slight larger"///

 

That Hassy X1D is $10,000.

Edited July 12, 2017 by jaapv
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[Belle123]

Is cracking me up to talk about TL2 and Hasselblad X1d in the same paragraph!

[IkarusJohn]

Celebraited highlight of SL the viewfinder, celebraited highlight of M10 the viewfinder, I simply don't understand how anyone would prefer a camera without a built in viewfinder, the tilt aspect maybe but the GX7/8 has that. No built in flash on a portable camera, useful for fill, enhancing portraits and night shots. And when you need the flash you can't use the VF, something that a EVF is useful for, seeing in the dark. Leica shooter trait being discrete, a lite up back screen illuminating your flash is not discrete, not to mention if you need a diopter adjustment, I'm only plus 0.5 but still struggle to read menus. Rear screen for a tripod if it tilts. Are there really that many iPhone users, with $2000 to spare on a camera and prepared to put their phone down for long enough to take a picture. How many of those prepared to buy this camera wouldn't if it had a VF, I suspect none. I don't get it, it's not as if it rivals the SL or the M, only the Q and given this camera with a lens is more expensive then a Q, there's no harm to Leica there anyhow. 

 

 

I agree that a built in EVF would be preferable, but I am not party to Leica's strategic thinking or the technical difficulties that including a built in EVF entails.  But, I don't agree with your comparison to the iPhone or the Q.  Neither has the ability to change lenses, so the comparison isn't really apposite.  The TL2 is a system camera, with its own lens line and the ability to take SL and M mount lenses - that makes it very different.

 

I had the 020 EVF with the T, and I agree it was awkward.  In practice it worked very well (apart from the blackout, which I understand has been largely sorted), but it caught on things.  If you want pocketable (which I do), then the TL2 with a small lens like the 28 Elmarit-M or Summaron-M or the 23 Summicron-TL looks like a good option.  If I want the EVF, then it will have to go into the other pocket.  I'm not a big flash user, but I do have the SF40, and would use it with the TL2, I guess.  I'm sure I can cope with using the LCD in those rare cases.

 

Perfect, perhaps not; but at least, I do "get it" - this camera is not an SL or M substitute (though it could be an M alternative).

Edited July 11, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I was down at my dealer yesterday (and yes, sometimes I think Heroin would have been cheaper...) and he had been in Germany two months ago and had been to Leica and seen the TL2 and had discussions. Apparently the flash was removed as they needed the space for the new processors and heat management. It's not just a money thing.

 

Personally I will miss the flash. The whole point, to me, of the T is to have a small camera that I can take to parties and places where photography isn't the emphasis and yet still have great lenses. The T fit the bill, except for the crap low light AF. And it's the only Leica camera where I wanted a small flash built in. It's not even the EVF (although I prefer to have one) because sometimes using the camera with the LCD gets a different reaction from subjects to using a viewfinder. Now I have to CARRY a friggin' flash. No thanks.

 

The TL2 is not a grab and go camera. I can grab the TL (usually the VF is on it) a spare battery and go. Now I've got to remember to pack a flash and to make sure it has batteries that are charged. It's not a camera slung over my shoulder any more because I have to put the flash in a pocket or a bag. I sold my little SF flash when I got my T for exactly this reason. For me, Leica have removed one of the attractions of the T. I was really looking forward to the better sensor and AF but the TL2 kind of spoils the experience.

 

I already have a bunch of APSC and m43 cameras. The one thing they didn't have was a built in flash. I'm seriously considering skipping the TL2 and going back to my PenF. Yep I need a flash but at least the one they supply doesn't need batteries and it's tiny. Such a shame. I was really hoping to get rid of a bunch of gear and consolidate around the L mount. Leica have just made that idea a little less attractive.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. I have an X1D. If you've used one you'd realise the comparisons aren't as silly as you think. It maybe 10 grand but if you're choosing the TL system over a Fuji then cost isn't you're primary decision criteria, is it?

[Jkulin]

Gordon, thanks, having handled the X1D the comparisons apart from the price are good, yes it might be $10K, but by the time I have added a number of Leica lenses, flash, EVF, I'm halfway there and probably halfway there on a secondhand trade in.

 

My T is great, it was bought because I needed quality and compactness with a lightweight because of a bad back and until I can afford an X1D then it will remain in use.

 

Leica do try to bury their heads, I reported a bug fix in February with switching profiles from 30sec duration to normal duration profiles that the screen does not respond, still not fixed!

 

I reported that when controlling 30 sec exposures via your phone that the sensors were over heating and locking the camera up, still not fixed.

 

These were reported via Leica UK who confirmed that they had been received, but no action or firmware update!

 

Leica had a fantastic opportunity to produce an M/Q with interchangeable lenses, AF, built in flash, 24mp, 32GB, Built in VF, but they missed the boat, the TL is just an upgraded T with a few bells and whistles, it's not innovative, sure the lenses are beautiful, but there is nothing innovative about the camera, they have buried their heads in the sand.

[fastfashn]

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- Fuji XPro-1 2013, March 10, Berkeley, CA

 

"Apparently the flash was removed as they needed the space for the new processors and heat management." Hmmmm... I guess I wouldn't miss it because I don't like strobes. I usually shoot with an X-Pro1 (no flash) and in five years I really haven't missed mister flashy. They distract SO BADLY from ambient, they attract attention, they can completely ruin a scene.

 

A few years ago I was shooting a wedding, and a person with a Nikon DSLR was the primary photographer. She flashed EVERYTHING. When we got the pix back, the flashy flashy had completely destroyed the "scene". This shot (attached my example) from her (example not included) became just a generic brightly-lit sterile thing in which the hanging lights just blended in with the back wall.

 

Over many years I have seen complaint after complaint that flash can be too harsh, and that T flash was so tiny as to be a point source. You could not bounce it. You could not filter it. The only reason I'd ever want to use a flash like that would be to make (deliberately) the worst kind of snapshot. 

 

You use different tools for different jobs. I'm going to assume that, when you take a camera, you have in mind the kind of scene you will be shooting for a job, or for street, or for fun, and you take the tools along you think will serve you best. If your vision for the day indicates a different type of tool than a T, you take a different tool. You don't use a Phillips screwdriver when a flat-blade is required.

Edited July 11, 2017 by fastfashn

[Jkulin]

I agree that the flash had it's limitations, but I have found on numerous occasions it was useful for a little fill in, drop the power down a little and it produced the desired results.

 

I also like the small highlight that it can produce in the eyes where without it they could look quite dull.

[Belle123]

How did we get to talking about the X1d on this thread???? I have one. Camera and lens, one lens to start, is around 12 K+. Not a 10k system. And not likely to go down in price. It's a small market, less than Leica. Terrific camera. But crazy to compare it to the T, or the SL for that matter. If you like incredible IQ and can afford it, get one. But, lets not do the TL2 vs Hasselblad x1d here like they did with the SL. Ha! You guys crack me up.

[Guest]

I struggle to see how an APSC image of 24MP compares to an image from the Medium Format X1D. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Picked up my TL2 today.

 

Gordon

[Jkulin]

How did we get to talking about the X1d on this thread???? I have one. Camera and lens, one lens to start, is around 12 K+. Not a 10k system. And not likely to go down in price. It's a small market, less than Leica. Terrific camera. But crazy to compare it to the T, or the SL for that matter. If you like incredible IQ and can afford it, get one. But, lets not do the TL2 vs Hasselblad x1d here like they did with the SL. Ha! You guys crack me up.

 

Hi Belle, maybe didn't come across like I wanted, so apologies, what I was meaning was if you want a light, quality, compact, portable camera then the X1D offered everything that was missing with the new TL2.....but with a much larger expenditure.

 

I've seen them advertised secondhand already for under $10K, albeit with one lens, I don't tend to buy new as I let someone else take the hit with the VAT.

 

I was using it as a comparison of facilities rather than the size of the CCD or price.

 

I just wished that Leica had really listened.

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[jonoslack]

Yep you are right. the X1-D in my opinion offers me everything that the T/TL doesn't, and it is only slight larger, gorgeous to use and hold, offers a bulb setting, built in EVF, the ability to uise the EVF and flash at the same time. Of course it is a lot more, but I bought the T because of it's flexibility and weight (due to a bad back) then the X1D came out offering me everything apart from the bank balance to buy it, hoping that the price will come down over the next year.

 

I tried one and the autofocus and startup was so slow I thought I'd gone to sleep - much worse than the original T. 

Glorious image quality of course . . . but . . .but . . . but