jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #21 Posted March 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well I passed on M9 M240 fior many reasons- this being one of them. Cancelled my pre-order for M10 to see how the early adopters fair. I still have not decided on the M10. I waa very frustrated having this problem on my M8. I still enjoy the camera. I just figured Letca could figure thus out by now Maybe service in Europe is a couple of weeks. In the US it is far longer. Leica NJ is awful It is not a Leica problem. It is a digital sensor problem in general. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 26, 2017 Posted March 26, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Horizontal lines on M10 at ISO 2500 plus hot pixels. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lm_user Posted March 26, 2017 Share #22 Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) Deleted post. Tired of bickering about this. Jaapv is right. Take it or leave it.... Edited March 26, 2017 by lm_user Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted March 26, 2017 Share #23 Posted March 26, 2017 So far I've only experienced the issue in a couple images out of thousands shot. Are we sure this is a dead pixel issue? In the past dead pixels resulted in vertical lines. I have only experienced horizontal lines with read/write errors. Seems more likely if problem is intermittent. Just asking Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #24 Posted March 26, 2017 @bancosydney can you see if you can replicate the issue consistantly? or does it only occur occasionally? (which would support my heat theory) The lines were in at least 10% of the first 100 shots. I don't think it's heat related. It started indoors, on a normal 25 degree Celsius autumn day, on (I think) the sixth photo I took with the camera. I wasn't shooting in a burst. I don't think the camera was writing to the card from the buffer. To check, when I woke up this morning (it's 19 degrees and 7.20 am), I took three shots (selecting ISO 2500). There are several lines clearly visible across the whole frame in each shot. I'm taking it back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #25 Posted March 26, 2017 @bancosydney can you see if you can replicate the issue consistantly? or does it only occur occasionally? (which would support my heat theory) The lines were in at least 10% of the first 100 shots. I don't think it's heat related. It started indoors, on a normal 25 degree Celsius autumn day, on (I think) the sixth photo I took with the camera. I wasn't shooting in a burst. I don't think the camera was writing to the card from the buffer. To check, when I woke up this morning (it's 19 degrees and 7.20 am), I took three shots (selecting ISO 2500). There are several lines clearly visible across the whole frame in each shot. I'm taking it back. what is your firmware version? Please come back and report how Leica responds. BTW- "heat" issue as in the sensor is heating up and the small/dense M body cant dissipate the heat fast enough. I would assume at higher iso the sensor is getting hotter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #26 Posted March 26, 2017 The camera is running firmware 1.3.4.0. Yes, I understood the point about heat. My point was that there was no external reason of ambient temperature that could help explain a problem of overheating the sensor. And the three frames this morning were the first in about 15 hours of the camera being turned off. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 26, 2017 Share #27 Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) A small comfort for those who use Photoshop (which is all I have) is that hot pixels and lines can be fixed 'in batch', all at once. I have actions for both M9s to do that, hands-off. So when you send your camera away for replacement, you can use similar means to save your images as you wait for its return. Me, I'm trying not to send either M9 for sensor repair/replacement because I just hate not having one - or two. Best, Pico Edited March 26, 2017 by pico 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted March 26, 2017 Share #28 Posted March 26, 2017 I'm really disappointed to read this thread , I'd have thought by now Leica would have found a solution to this problem. My time with the M8 was plagued with a similar issue, with at least 3 returns to Solms to have the lines addressed. After 2 sensor replacements they ultimately replaced the camera with a M8.2 which was a welcome upgrade for all the inconvenience. None the less, loosing the camera for a total of 5 months took the gloss off the whole M experience. Granted on that sensor the lines were vertical, but vertical or horizontal, its presence is dismaying. To say "it's not a Leica problem ... it's a sensor problem" is just conjecture at this stage, or semantics in defence of Leica. Ultimately Leica chose the components and manufactured / assembled the camera, it is their warranty and customer support which will be standing over the camera, so IMO it is very much Leica's problem and the poor customers misfortune should the problem appear. I fully intend to "torture test" my M10 before I pay and walk out the door of the dealer. Life is too short to be dealing with this and the loss of the camera for months on end. I really want to believe these are isolated cases and in general the product is reliable & of the quality Leica pride themselves on. Maybe it's not such a bad thing having to wait until May. They may have a chance to iron out the issue by then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #29 Posted March 26, 2017 I took it back to the dealer, who was excellent, this morning for exchange. He reproduced the fault on the first shot with a different lens and card. He was wondering whether it might be a voltage issue. He's getting another shipment of M10s this week so hopefully I won't have to wait long. But the upshot is I'll probably never find out how Leica deals with it at the factory level. Thanks for all your help. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #30 Posted March 26, 2017 I took it back to the dealer, who was excellent, this morning for exchange. He reproduced the fault on the first shot with a different lens and card. He was wondering whether it might be a voltage issue. He's getting another shipment of M10s this week so hopefully I won't have to wait long. But the upshot is I'll probably never find out how Leica deals with it at the factory level. Thanks for all your help. thats great news. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #31 Posted March 26, 2017 It is! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #32 Posted March 26, 2017 I'm really disappointed to read this thread , I'd have thought by now Leica would have found a solution to this problem. My time with the M8 was plagued with a similar issue, with at least 3 returns to Solms to have the lines addressed. After 2 sensor replacements they ultimately replaced the camera with a M8.2 which was a welcome upgrade for all the inconvenience. None the less, loosing the camera for a total of 5 months took the gloss off the whole M experience. Granted on that sensor the lines were vertical, but vertical or horizontal, its presence is dismaying. To say "it's not a Leica problem ... it's a sensor problem" is just conjecture at this stage, or semantics in defence of Leica. Ultimately Leica chose the components and manufactured / assembled the camera, it is their warranty and customer support which will be standing over the camera, so IMO it is very much Leica's problem and the poor customers misfortune should the problem appear. I fully intend to "torture test" my M10 before I pay and walk out the door of the dealer. Life is too short to be dealing with this and the loss of the camera for months on end. I really want to believe these are isolated cases and in general the product is reliable & of the quality Leica pride themselves on. Maybe it's not such a bad thing having to wait until May. They may have a chance to iron out the issue by then. Really? http://bfy.tw/ArpN http://bfy.tw/ArpY As long as Leica is unable to control cosmic radiation (or more specifically Neutrons generated by Gamma radiation in the upper atmosphere), silicon-based sensors will occasionally sustain damage, especially when transported by air and on a transpolar route. Speculation: Glass is sometimes used as a Neutron shield, so it may well be that the thicker filter stack on other brands offers a modicum of protection. making the Leica M slightly more susceptible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted March 27, 2017 Share #33 Posted March 27, 2017 How does the digital sensor on the Hubbel telescope survive for years ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted March 27, 2017 Share #34 Posted March 27, 2017 Transpolar shipping routes indeed ... err the OP is in Australia!. It's a wonder how the world's cameras / smartphone cameras even manage to survive during periods of mass corona ejections and intense cosmic rays. Believe what you will, I'm sure there is merit in it somewhere. I'll continue to believe Lines and Leica have more in common than other manufacturers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesurf Posted March 27, 2017 Share #35 Posted March 27, 2017 How does the digital sensor on the Hubbel telescope survive for years ? Certainly off topic, but the 1994 version used an actively cooled CCD sensor module; see the manual here. The final service mission #4 of Hubble in 2009 the Wide Field and Planetary Camera Ver3 (WFC3) featuring two UV/visible detecting CCDs, each 2048×4096 pixels, and a separate IR detector of 1024×1024, capable of receiving infrared radiation up to 1700 nm. The cooling system for the CCD modules use thermoelectric cooling, eliminating cryogenic gases, not unlike your peltier effect wine chillers Most DSLR and Mirrorless Camera CMOS sensors rely on everything from heat sinks to vents for air circulation and even heat dissipation paste, while cinematic cameras use dedicated but tiny cooling systems, automatically activated during extended shoots. That said, and now that you see this sensor heating issue is widespread in the industry, just be thankful the M10 does not have a video button to make more heat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 27, 2017 Share #36 Posted March 27, 2017 Transpolar shipping routes indeed ... err the OP is in Australia!. It's a wonder how the world's cameras / smartphone cameras even manage to survive during periods of mass corona ejections and intense cosmic rays. Believe what you will, I'm sure there is merit in it somewhere. I'll continue to believe Lines and Leica have more in common than other manufacturers. Especiallydoes not mean only... Especially does not mean only. Scoff all you want, but you are denying well-established facts. I'm using LMGTFY as there are too many links to articles on the subject to list. http://bfy.tw/As2h Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 27, 2017 Share #37 Posted March 27, 2017 How does the digital sensor on the Hubbel telescope survive for years ? It is radiation-hardened. http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/ntb/features/feature-articles/23342 http://sensor radiation hardening Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted March 27, 2017 Share #38 Posted March 27, 2017 As long as Leica is unable to control cosmic radiation... Jaap, I sometimes think you'd lay down your life to defend the honour of Leica. It's strange, but oddly endearing... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 27, 2017 Share #39 Posted March 27, 2017 I just strongly dislike general problems to be blamed on a specific manufacturer, be it Leica or another one. And I object to the substitution of established facts by uninformed opinion. I would react the same if one were to substitute any other brand. And defending Leica? I was half-murdered by some members for my objections to the M10... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted March 27, 2017 Share #40 Posted March 27, 2017 And defending Leica? You jest... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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