Final step C41 process

[Wayne]

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In all printed instructions I have read and used for C41 process, the final step is the stabilizer soak. I was watching a Youtube video a week ago or so, and the individual submerged the reel, still loaded with film, in distilled water as the final step. I have started doing the final rinse of my B&W film in distilled water; and it seems to have improved the result. Is there any problem with soaking the color film in distilled water as a final rinse, or, substituting the stabilizer step with distilled water soak?

[250swb]

I suspect the person in the YouTube video had previously gotten drying marks when using the stabiliser, but the stabiliser is needed for colour permanence (although it won't degrade quickly and may still last years and years). And yes drying marks and the froth can be a big problem, some say to put a drop of Photoflo in the stabiliser solution, some say to use half the dilution so it isn't as strong (and soak it for a bit longer), and some say to be very, very gentle and not to agitate the stabiliser solution so you don't get the frothing. My method is to use a film squeegee, the only time I use one of these hideous things, but it does wipe off the froth of the stabiliser and stop drying marks. 

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[Wayne]

Thank you for the response. I have always suspected the stabilizer becomes contaminated by previous uses. Maybe one solution is to do distilled water soak/wash prior to use of stabilizer.

 

Is there a means of purifying, to any extent, stabilizer once it shows signs of contamination?

[Martin B]

Reading this with interest since I always rinsed the film in water and distilled water after using the stabilizer. I was wondering if the rinse with water would wash away the stabilizer to some degree since the film only remains in the stabilizer solution for a short time.

Some solids precipitated from my stabilizer solution after a few times of usage - the precipitate did not dissolve again even when the stabilizer solution was warmed up. So I filtered the solution and got rid of the colorless precipitate assuming that there is still enough component left in the solution to do the job.

[250swb]

I'd not considered filtering the stabiliser, but good point about it appearing after a few uses. I have also been unable to remove it once dry, it's not like a normal drying mark but similar to a dried spot of salty water with the precipitate forming on the edge of the spot. I'm due to mix a new batch soon, I think some experimentation with the film offcuts is called for.

[105012]

The instructions say the last step is stabiliser and I think this is worth following. A drop of Photo-Flo won't hurt if your stab is not very soapy. The Rollei Digibase kit needs dilution of the stab by 2x as there is a well known error in it's instructions, other kits are fine. I recommend not putting your reels into the stab because it will adhere to the reels even after a rinse and may build up to affect colour development over time.

[adan]

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Stabilizer already contains "Photo-Flo," essentially. A wetting agent to reduce surface tension and "beading" of drops on the drying film and promote cleaner drying. Which, indeed, tends to cling to reels just like regular Photo-Flo. Wash the gear (not the film) in HOT water for 1-2 mintues after processing is done.

 

Stabilizer's main ingredient is more or less an embalming fluid (up until fairly recently, literally so - formaldehyde, diluted to the 40% solution formalin) to "pickle" and preserve the organic color dyes. It needs to stay in the film for its lifetime to do its job - do not wash after the stabilizer step.

 

I make it really simple - a liter/quart of C-41 developer is good for 8-12 rolls, and when I mix fresh developer, I mix fresh solution of all the chemicals at the same time. So my stabilizer never hangs around more than a couple of weeks.

[Martin B]

Stabilizer already contains "Photo-Flo," essentially. A wetting agent to reduce surface tension and "beading" of drops on the drying film and promote cleaner drying. Which, indeed, tends to cling to reels just like regular Photo-Flo. Wash the gear (not the film) in HOT water for 1-2 mintues after processing is done.

 

Stabilizer's main ingredient is more or less an embalming fluid (up until fairly recently, literally so - formaldehyde, diluted to the 40% solution formalin) to "pickle" and preserve the organic color dyes. It needs to stay in the film for its lifetime to do its job - do not wash after the stabilizer step.

 

I make it really simple - a liter/quart of C-41 developer is good for 8-12 rolls, and when I mix fresh developer, I mix fresh solution of all the chemicals at the same time. So my stabilizer never hangs around more than a couple of weeks.

 

Thanks for sharing this - I am surprised that the stabilizer is 40% formaldehyde since it doesn't smell like it. What does precipitate from the stabilizer solution after a few times of usage?  

[adan]

As I said - "up until fairly recently". The formaldehyde, for health/safety reasons/regulations, has been removed/replaced.

 

Kodak 2009 safety data sheet for Flexicolor Stabilizer: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kodak/Flexicolor_Stabilizer_Replenisher_5_Gal.pdf

 

My current Flexicolor stabilizer bottle lists ingredients: diethylene glycol; mixture of alcohol ethoxylates; isothiazolone; water; magnesium nitrate.

 

The alcohol ethoxylates are the "photo-flo-like" surfactants; the diethylene glycol and isothiazolone are "biocides" (or more simply - poisons) that prevent fungi or bacteria from getting at the color dyes, but are probably not as effective as formaldehyde in causing the formation of intermolecular bonds between organic proteins that make it such a powerful preservative.

 

I.E. film finished with the newer formula may not be as fade-resistant as in the past. Especially fading from light or atmospheric-pollution influences.

 

It is quite possible that non-Kodak manufacturers dropped the formaldehyde formulation earlier, or never used it at all.

 

I've never seen any precipitation myself, but at a guess there might be a reaction over time between the ethoxylates and the magnesium nitrate, resulting in a precipitation of magnesium oxalate (which is extremely insoluble in water). Equally at a guess, it is fine to filter it out - it doesn't seem to be an active ingredient in the preservative function.

 

But it may be "using up" the ethoxylates, which would result in less wetting action and thus a higher probability of water spots on dried film. Probably a good sign to just toss the mixture and make fresh.

Edited March 14, 2017 by adan

[Wayne]

@adan,

 

What do you do with the film once you finish the stabilizer application? Do you just hang to dry,? or do you wipe excess away in any fashion?

 

I note, the contamination from stabilizer always resides near the perforations in 35mm film. In past I have both a squeegee and my fingers to wipe excess stabilizer off before hanging to dry. Oddly enough, I have never had anywhere near the stabilizer contamination  problems with my MF negatives, as I have had with 35mm.

[adan]

As I've said elsewhere, my technique with either C-41 film, or B&W film with Photo-flo, is to give it a "raccoon wash" in the final bath, and then use gravity as my friend to direct the flow of solution off the film, carrying with it any foam, dust, etc.

 

http://www.libertywildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Washing-her-food.jpg

 

I don't touch the film with anything (fingers, squeegee) except fingers at the very ends.

 

1. Once the film has been in the final tank 10-15 seconds, take the film off the processing reel, and hold each end in one hand, to make a hanging "U." Dip the bend in the "U" into the stabilizer or Photo-Flo and by raising and lowering my hands, wash the whole roll back and forth through the tank.

 

2. Pull the "U" rapidly out of the tank to bring a good amount of solution up with it (you want really wet film to get nicely dried film ) and hold it out straight, edge down, so that gravity will pull all the liquid to one edge, carrying with it any foam and anything in suspension (dust, chemical crystals, etc.).

 

3. Slowly rotate the film from horizontal through 45° to vertical, so that the collected liquid on one edge runs down just that edge to the bottom. Again, gravity is carrying away the collected "stuff" on the film. Some foam is actually a plus, as a visible indicator that the last bath is flowing off adequately and completely, in both steps 2 and 3..

 

4. Hang to dry from the vertical position.

 

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[Wayne]

Well, I will have to switch to the "racoon" method; the ignorant, inexperienced, confused, frustrated Homo sapien method has not been working for me.

 

Is that distilled water the racoon is washing in?

[fotohuis]

The last step in C-41 (and E-6) is always the stabilizer. To prevent contamination of your reel you can use the Raccoon Wash method. Or clean your reels very good after using it in a wetting agent or Stabilizer.

Using it in an elevator of any Jobo processor system is a really no go!

[M9reno]

Indeed, I keep wetting agent away from Jobo equipment and reels. But I have not worried about the Stab contaminating the machine, since Jobo literature provides warning about wetting agents, not stabilisers. Anyway, a good five-minute wash cycle at 38 degrees at the end of the process (water changing every 45 seconds) and a further hot wash of the reels after removal of the film seems to do the trick, with no contamination apparent.

[Martin B]

As I've said elsewhere, my technique with either C-41 film, or B&W film with Photo-flo, is to give it a "raccoon wash" in the final bath, and then use gravity as my friend to direct the flow of solution off the film, carrying with it any foam, dust, etc.

 

http://www.libertywildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Washing-her-food.jpg

 

I don't touch the film with anything (fingers, squeegee) except fingers at the very ends.

 

1. Once the film has been in the final tank 10-15 seconds, take the film off the processing reel, and hold each end in one hand, to make a hanging "U." Dip the bend in the "U" into the stabilizer or Photo-Flo and by raising and lowering my hands, wash the whole roll back and forth through the tank.

 

2. Pull the "U" rapidly out of the tank to bring a good amount of solution up with it (you want really wet film to get nicely dried film ) and hold it out straight, edge down, so that gravity will pull all the liquid to one edge, carrying with it any foam and anything in suspension (dust, chemical crystals, etc.).

 

3. Slowly rotate the film from horizontal through 45° to vertical, so that the collected liquid on one edge runs down just that edge to the bottom. Again, gravity is carrying away the collected "stuff" on the film. Some foam is actually a plus, as a visible indicator that the last bath is flowing off adequately and completely, in both steps 2 and 3..

 

4. Hang to dry from the vertical position.

 

drippingfilm.jpg

 

I tried the raccoon wash method with a developed B&W film yesterday for the final wash with distilled water, and it worked well! The toughest here is the first step to dip the film within the beaker filled with distilled water and move it from one side to the other while holding and dipping it in the water.....38 frames is a quite long film, and I had to carefully fold it on one side to avoid that the film touches the floor. I used this racoon wash method in this final step to limit the amount of distilled water I had to use - and I didn't want to wash the film inside the tank with distilled water because it was still wet from the wash with regular water. In the end I hang the film to dry, didn't use a squeegee, and it turned out fine!

Edited March 27, 2017 by Martin B