Max $6k for Initial Lens Kit for M10: 35, 50 options-- help me narrow down. Long-ish read!

[eyeheartny]

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First, a little background after that admittedly clickbait-y headline!  

• I'm newly coming to the M system (M10 on preorder) from more than a few years of photography. I started out on B&W 35mm film around 25 years ago on an Olympus OM-2N and spent many many hours in darkrooms, eventually shooting a lot on a Nikon N90 for a long time. I had a few forays into studio lighting, artificial light with Speedlights outdoors and shooting on crop sensor dSLRs. I also shot some medium and large format film along the way on a few different systems. I shot with some good zooms over the years but always, always, always had more fun and made better images with primes. 
• My primary reasons for the M move are image quality (and lens quality by extension), compactness, and the creative value of the rangefinder. Yes, I can and will explain what 'image quality' means in a concrete sense for how I approach photography!  
• For me, a big part of image quality is dynamic range and tonal gradation when it comes to the sensor/film. These issues were part of what pushed me away from quite a few of the dSLRs I shot with. On my film days I tended not to love grainy films unless they were necessary; smoothness was preferable. The sample images I've seen from the M10 look extremely promising in terms of DR, tonal capture, and lower-noise performance at higher ISOs.  
• In terms of lens quality, I prize the ability to separate subject matter into distinct/discrete depth planes within an image. Leica (and to an extent, some Zeiss) lenses do this better than any I've seen anywhere. You'll see below why this particular characteristic is making some of my lens choices really hard. 
• Focal length/field-of-view wise, I tend to hover in the mid-ranges with a little foray into moderate wide angle. My favorite zoom for many years was a Nikon 28-70 f/2.8, and my favorite images were clustered around 28mm, 35mm, and 52mm (on that lens). The edge was to the slightly wider end, but I have some great shots of both people and landscapes in the 50ish range. My favorite portrait I ever took was on a 60mm lens, for whatever that's worth. 
• I would like to explore the wider end of things at some point on the M but am not sure I want to deal with external viewfinders on my M10 just yet. Enough to deal with to make the rangefinder jump...switching between a rangefinder window for focusing and the external viewfinder for framing just doesn't appeal at the moment.  
• I do like shooting at night/in mixed lighting conditions where low(er)-light performance is a consideration. That said, the higher ISO performance of the M10 may make super-speed lenses less necessary (not saying I don't love how they can look in the right hands). Not sure but it's on my mind. 

Okay, so after that preamble, here we are. 

• I've budgeted around $6k for lenses, or lens if you keep reading. 
• I'm aware that 35 and 50 can be seen by some as "close," but the FOV is sufficiently different to me to seriously consider buying one of each.
• Occasionally a 50mm prime can feel a little claustrophobic for me in certain circumstances, and in others it's exactly what I want. The same can be said for 35-- sometimes it's perfect and others it's just not a good feel. But that said, maybe I'm nitpicking and could be fine with a single lens. 
• I'm confused, as I can look at images shot with a 35mm Summicron ASPH vs a 35mm Summilux FLE and see differences in the field curvature, local contrast, color rendition (on unretouched images), but I also have a sensible side that says the 35 Summicron is an amazing lens and the 35 Summilux would be nice-to-have but not necessarily worth $1k more. However, as I've said, I'm conflicted/torn. 
• I will say, before putting the list of what I'm considering below, that some of the images I've seen with the M10 and the 50 Apo-Summicron are among the best digital images I've ever seen in terms of the qualities I like (I realize this is subject so it's why I'm highlighting it). Maybe I'm just imagining things, but some of the B&W conversions remind me of medium-format film in a way I've never seen on digital before. It's breathtaking. That said, it's also a near-total bust of my lens budget if I buy it. So, there's that. 

 

Here are the things I'm considering, with prices in USD from EU dealers, at today's exchange rate: 

 

 

If you made it this far, thank you. And if you have any advice to offer, I'll be grateful. I hope I've provided enough information to get some good advice and not just a generic "lenses are personal, figure it out for yourself" kind of response.   Thanks in advance.
 

[Jeff S]

Have you considered renting...or demo-ing from a dealer or friend? I find that taking pics and making prints using my own workflow answers most questions. You could try an M8, M9 or M240 to get a good feel for the RF experience.

 

There really aren't any duds among your choices...or even others like the 35 Summarit.

 

I just happen to own the 50 Summilux ASPH and 35 Summicron ASPH. No complaints.

 

Frankly, more depends on user techniques and preferences than the gear, especially given your quality benchmark.

 

Jeff

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[eyeheartny]

Have you considered renting...or demo-ing from a dealer or friend? I find that taking pics and making prints using my own workflow answers most questions. You could try an M8, M9 or M240 to get a good feel for the RF experience.

 

There really aren't any duds among your choices...or even others like the 35 Summarit.

 

I just happen to own the 50 Summilux ASPH and 35 Summicron ASPH. No complaints.

 

Frankly, more depends on user techniques and preferences than the gear, especially given your quality benchmark.

 

Jeff

 

A few nights ago I got my cart filled up on BorrowLenses and stopped myself before spending $700 for 4 days of rental equipment (M262 with only a 35mm f2 and 50mm f1.4) when I realized that that amount was basically the cost of owning a Zeiss lens. I find the rental prices to be absurd and while I'd absolutely love to test this gear, I can't really make it make sense to spend that much money on something for 4 days. Even if it was $500 for 2 days (the shortest rental period they'll do, I think) it's still kind of absurd I have no problem (obviously) spending a ton of money on items that are high quality (even outside photo stuff, like watches) and that last a long time, but a short rental feels like throwing it away. There aren't any rental houses that have Leica gear where I live in San Diego, so that's not an option. I don't know anyone who shoots Leica here either! 

 

I understand that technique is a big part of it, no question. But I guess I'm asking two questions separate from technique-- how folks would spend the money I've set aside, as well as whether there are ways to spend that money that would be better than others, or "good enough" like some of the Zeiss options. Good to know you have and like the 50mm Summilux and 35mm Summicron combo. I guess I'm also wondering if there's a clear sense that one of these lengths is better to go with a Zeiss option. The 50 Planar and 35 Biogon f2 both seem to be excellent performers. I think I'd ideally want one Leica lens that is a clear standout and then the other length I'd be fine to get a Zeiss that is a great performer. The other part of this that I'm considering is whether I should go with a combo I didn't list like a 35 Summicron ASPH/50mm f2 Planar/21 Elmar, or 50 Summilux/35 Biogon/21 Elmar. 

[bencoyote]

You know the one thing that is missing from all of that?

What do you generally take pictures of? Landscape, street, portrait, documentary...?

 

There are a ton of more experienced people here than me but I can tell you my experience:

The 50 summilux really is probably the most generally useful lens. It is good in low light has great bokeh and isolates the subject well. Isn't too wide or too tele. It is also not too big. The problem with the 50 is that at times especially indoors it is too cramped and you want wider. For a one lens kit, this would be the one.

However, If you're doing mostly landscapes, street, documentary then you may want wider and the 35 is worth considering. As you well know you lose some subject isolation. I tend to do more night and low light photography and so my next lens will likely be a summilux 35mm FLE. If the kinds of things you shoot are like those above 35mm may be your thing.

 

I also have a 28mm summicron. When I'm outside doing landscape or doing street or inside in a tight space this is the lens. Small light great. It doesn't really isolate the subject much unless you are wide open and so close that you have to worry about perspective. When I'm at my best, this lens leads to photos that have that "magnum" look for me. The frame is filled with things going on in multiple planes in the wide DOF. It is not for portraiture, it is always something in context. I also find that I tend to shoot the 28mm stopped down and so I'm rarely using f2. Thus going faster for a summilux seems like it would be a waste.

 

When the light is really low the 35mm Summilux has an advantage over the 50mm. I can hand hold 1/30 almost always and 1/15 sometimes with the 50mm but with a 28 or 35 I can do 1/15 or sometimes 1/8. This is getting into the range of: you can't see well enough to focus.

 

28 Summicron & 50 Summilux to me that's the perfect two lens combination.

 

For many of the reasons why your considering a two lens kit, I wouldn't go for the APO-Summicron 50. You'll blow your whole budget on one lens and you'll want wider sometimes. While it is probably a bit better, you'll probably have to look really closely to see the difference in the images. And the summilux gives you that much more subject isolation when you need it.

 

Depending on what you shoot if I were going for the 35mm I'd pair it with a 75 and go for 35mm Summilux & 75mm Summicron.

 

The great thing with Leica is that you don't need a lot of lenses. You just need to be a good photographer.

[Jeff S]

At lensrentals you could rent an M262, 35 Summicron and 50 Summilux for 3 days for $422.

 

Another option is to buy mint used samples and, if not satisfied, probably lose little if any upon resale.

 

Jeff

[jim0266]

There is something to be said for a light, small lens in your favorite focal length that begs to be taken it out. I've migrated to Zeiss (25, 35/2.8 and 35/1.4) except for the 50 ASPH. The Zeiss 50 Planar has focus shift that was annoying. The Zeiss 35 C-Biogon or the 35 Summarit are wonderfully small on an M and balance nicely. The Summarit I tested had focus shift where the Zeiss C-Biogon did not.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by jim0266

[Jeff S]

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There is something to be said for a light, small lens in your favorite focal length that begs to be taken it out. I've migrated to Zeiss (25, 35/2.8 and 35/1.4) except for the 50 ASPH. The Zeiss 50 Planar has focus shift that was annoying. The Zeiss 35 C-Biogon or the 35 Summarit are wonderfully small on an M and balance nicely. The Summarit I tested had focus shift where the Zeiss C-Biogon did not.

The 35 Summarit is, by most reports, more flare-free than the 35 Summicron ASPH, and less prone to focus shift. My Summicron exhibits mild focus shift at f4-f-5.6, but this is easily accommodated and not a problem in my prints, which is all I care about.

 

Jeff

[Herr Barnack]

For the M10, I would recommend the 50mm Summicron #11826 @$2200 and a 28mm Summicron #11672 @$4100.  It's $300 over your budget but if you can squeeze out the extra $300, you will be well set up with lenses. 

 

Given the M10's high ISO capability, f/2 is plenty of lens speed; the Summicron lenses are also quite a bit smaller, lighter and more affordable than the faster f/1.4 Summilux lenses. 

 

You could substitute a used 50 Summicron for the new copy and save a few hundred dollars in the process.  I would urge you to get the recently redesigned 28mm Summicron #11672 rather than an older version, though. 

 

Another lens to consider would be the 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit #11677.  This is the 28mm that I use and it is a truly outstanding little lens.  At $2300 new, it is a screaming good deal in terms of image quality.  Paired with the 50mm Summicron #11826, you would have a really excellent two lens kit for $4500 with money left over out of your $6000 lens budget.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Carlos Danger

[eyeheartny]

For the M10, I would recommend the 50mm Summicron #11826 @$2200 and a 28mm Summicron #11672 @$4100.  It's $300 over your budget but if you can squeeze out the extra $300, you will be well set up with lenses. 

 

Given the M10's high ISO capability, f/2 is plenty of lens speed; the Summicron lenses are also quite a bit smaller, lighter and more affordable than the faster f/1.4 Summilux lenses. 

 

You could substitute a used 50 Summicron for the new copy and save a few hundred dollars in the process.  I would urge you to get the recently redesigned 28mm Summicron #11672 rather than an older version, though. 

 

Another lens to consider would be the 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit #11677.  This is the 28mm that I use and it is a truly outstanding little lens.  At $2300 new, it is a screaming good deal in terms of image quality.  Paired with the 50mm Summicron #11826, you would have a really excellent two lens kit for $4500 with money left over out of your $6000 lens budget.

 

Thanks, that's worth considering. I can swing the extra $300, not a problem.  I will admit to being not sure about the 28mm length...it feels a little "nowhere" to me. When I shot with the 28-70 zoom on a dSLR, the shots at 28mm always felt either a little cramped for wide-angle (I wanted more room) or not tight enough...when I mention that I had some shots clustered there it was because I think was wanting a wider angle and couldn't get it. Budget aside, what's making you think that the 28 is preferable to a 35? 

 

In terms of the 50 recommendation, do you think the 50 Summicron is noticeably less good than the 50 Summilux in terms of subject separation? One of the most striking things about the 50 APO is the crispness with which the subject is in focus and the sharp falloff to OOF areas. I love that look. I've seen some shots on the 50 Summilux that get it but because the plane of focus is so thin, there are fewer that have that remarkable effect compared to the 50 APO. I haven't seen as many images from the 50 Summicron that do that but I'd certainly be willing to think about it, since the Zeiss 50 Planar at f2 has some of that ultra-crisp separation. 

[eyeheartny]

There are a ton of more experienced people here than me but I can tell you my experience:

The 50 summilux really is probably the most generally useful lens. It is good in low light has great bokeh and isolates the subject well. Isn't too wide or too tele. It is also not too big. The problem with the 50 is that at times especially indoors it is too cramped and you want wider. For a one lens kit, this would be the one.

However, If you're doing mostly landscapes, street, documentary then you may want wider and the 35 is worth considering. As you well know you lose some subject isolation. I tend to do more night and low light photography and so my next lens will likely be a summilux 35mm FLE. If the kinds of things you shoot are like those above 35mm may be your thing.

 

I also have a 28mm summicron. When I'm outside doing landscape or doing street or inside in a tight space this is the lens. Small light great. It doesn't really isolate the subject much unless you are wide open and so close that you have to worry about perspective. When I'm at my best, this lens leads to photos that have that "magnum" look for me. The frame is filled with things going on in multiple planes in the wide DOF. It is not for portraiture, it is always something in context. I also find that I tend to shoot the 28mm stopped down and so I'm rarely using f2. Thus going faster for a summilux seems like it would be a waste.

 

When the light is really low the 35mm Summilux has an advantage over the 50mm. I can hand hold 1/30 almost always and 1/15 sometimes with the 50mm but with a 28 or 35 I can do 1/15 or sometimes 1/8. This is getting into the range of: you can't see well enough to focus.

 

28 Summicron & 50 Summilux to me that's the perfect two lens combination.

 

For many of the reasons why your considering a two lens kit, I wouldn't go for the APO-Summicron 50. You'll blow your whole budget on one lens and you'll want wider sometimes. While it is probably a bit better, you'll probably have to look really closely to see the difference in the images. And the summilux gives you that much more subject isolation when you need it.

 

Depending on what you shoot if I were going for the 35mm I'd pair it with a 75 and go for 35mm Summilux & 75mm Summicron.

---

 

Good points, and thanks. I hear you loud and clear on not blowing the budget on the APO-Summicron. That may be a "someday" lens for me, we'll see. I definitely appreciate the suggestion on the 28mm, and will explore more about that lens...but I do think that it's not necessarily my favorite length. I do want something wider than 50mm for indoor work that's still flattering for faces, which is another reason the 35mm appeals so much. 

 

Maybe the best route here is to get a 50 Summilux ASPH with the M10 and then rent to see what else I want for the 2nd item in the lineup. I know I want a 50mm as so many of my favorite images I've taken and that others have taken with the M bodies are at that focal length. Honestly I want all the "marquee" 50s Leica makes-- the Noctilux, the APO-Summicron, the Summilux, and the Summicron. They all have something I covet! But your post made me think that as long as I start with one standout performer like the 50mm Summilux I can probably wait on that 2nd lens. This part isn't fun-- too much thinking, not enough shooting! 

[eyeheartny]

At lensrentals you could rent an M262, 35 Summicron and 50 Summilux for 3 days for $422.

 

Another option is to buy mint used samples and, if not satisfied, probably lose little if any upon resale.

 

Jeff

 

I'm totally not trying to be argumentative, truly-- but with shipping, tax, and insurance, it's $588 for 3 days. I may end up doing that but those rental rates just feel like highway robbery to me considering how often they can rent those out. As I said, I don't have a problem paying for quality, but I'm acutely sensitive to not being ripped off. 

[wattsy]

I'm totally not trying to be argumentative, truly-- but with shipping, tax, and insurance, it's $588 for 3 days. I may end up doing that but those rental rates just feel like highway robbery to me considering how often they can rent those out. As I said, I don't have a problem paying for quality, but I'm acutely sensitive to not being ripped off. 

 

 

With Leica, $588 is a drop in the ocean of the eventual losses you are likely to accumulate over time buying and selling various lenses (and probably cameras too) until you are settled on a kit. Renting for 3 days isn't anywhere long enough to get a feel for what lenses you will want longterm but it may prevent you from making an expensive mistake at the outset. You can also mitigate losses by buying used lenses. These are often available in mint or near mint condition and you'll be able to sell on for most or all of what you paid if you find the lens isn't what you want.

 

Why not save on rental costs by waiting until you have your M10 – presumably you are going to buy that anyway? Once you have the body your rental costs will be significantly reduced and you'll either be able to try out more lenses or rent for longer periods.

Edited February 25, 2017 by wattsy

[eyeheartny]

With Leica, $588 is a drop in the ocean of the eventual losses you are likely to accumulate over time buying and selling various lenses (and probably cameras too) until you are settled on a kit. Renting for 3 days isn't anywhere long enough to get a feel for what lenses you will want longterm but it may prevent you from making an expensive mistake at the outset. You can also mitigate losses by buying used lenses. These are often available in mint or near mint condition and you'll be able to sell on for most or all of what you paid if you find the lens isn't what you want.

 

Why not save on rental costs by waiting until you have your M10 – presumably you are going to buy that anyway? Once you have the body your rental costs will be significantly reduced and you'll either be able to try out more lenses or rent for longer periods.

Yeah, that's a fair point about future losses. But on the flip side, it's 19% of the cost of a Summilux.

 

I can definitely wait to do rentals until the body arrives, but part of me wanted to be able to have at least one lens when the camera arrives. I'm more excited about this purchase than anything I've bought in a long while, so my impatience and enthusiasm are showing. It may be months until my M10 arrives, been told April-May is likely. A painful wait, especially as I'm cameraless at the moment.

[B-A-C]

Good points, and thanks. I hear you loud and clear on not blowing the budget on the APO-Summicron. That may be a "someday" lens for me, we'll see. I definitely appreciate the suggestion on the 28mm, and will explore more about that lens...but I do think that it's not necessarily my favorite length. I do want something wider than 50mm for indoor work that's still flattering for faces, which is another reason the 35mm appeals so much. 

 

Maybe the best route here is to get a 50 Summilux ASPH with the M10 and then rent to see what else I want for the 2nd item in the lineup. I know I want a 50mm as so many of my favorite images I've taken and that others have taken with the M bodies are at that focal length. Honestly I want all the "marquee" 50s Leica makes-- the Noctilux, the APO-Summicron, the Summilux, and the Summicron. They all have something I covet! But your post made me think that as long as I start with one standout performer like the 50mm Summilux I can probably wait on that 2nd lens. This part isn't fun-- too much thinking, not enough shooting! 

 

The 50 Lux is amazing.  Image quality is insanely good.  It is a little on the large side.  Highly recommended.

[Exodies]

Think about what having only the Apo Summicron ASPH. 50 would do to you.

You are not going to wish you didn't have it.

You are going to become tuned in to it and find shots; there will be very few situations where you couldn't make it work.

Less bagage to carry around.

[B-A-C]

Think about what having only the Apo Summicron ASPH. 50 would do to you.

You are not going to wish you didn't have it.

You are going to become tuned in to it and find shots; there will be very few situations where you couldn't make it work.

Less bagage to carry around.

 

While I agree the APO is amazing, after using both I actually prefer the Lux 1.4 APO ASPH FLE.  Yes it is also an APO and an FLE at 1.4.  Optically it can do more than the 2.0, at half the price.  The decision is yours.

[low.jason]

Just an advice, you may consider pre-owned lenses, rather than buying new ones. eBay can be your first stop, or otherwise, look out for reputable pre-owned dealers in Europe or Hong Kong. You will be amazed at the difference in prices between pre-owned and new. 

 

As for choice of lens, there are many many many lenses out there worth checking out! In Leica, I always believe there is no such thing as a lousy lens. ) Modern lenses tend to produce images that are "sharper" or "clinical", while vintage lenses have more "character". I won't say much about modern lenses since the above posts have listed some for your consideration.

 

As for vintage lenses, if your preference is 35mm, you can always look at 35 cron 8 element (my favourite) or the Bokeh King (7 element), 35 lux pre FLE or even the 35 lux steel rim. If you like 50mm, you can consider 50 rigid cron or 50 lux pre ASPH or 50 lux v1. Google the reviews/sample pictures in flickr, they have very different characteristics in output.

 

Hope this helps.

[dunhoy]

Buy your lenses used and save yourself a bunch of €$¥£ which you could use to take a trip somewhere worth photographing. Leica lenses are metal construction and bombproof unlike abundant plastic autofocus crap from other major brands - seriously consider used glass

[michaelwj]

You've already been given a ton of advice, so I'll keep mine short.

 

The beauty of the Leica system is that the older lenses are not worse than the new ones, just different. Let me explain - unlike Canon/Nikon/all other lens mounts, ALL Leica lenses work with the exact same function. The aperture does not become electronic, the autofocus does not become better, and in most cases, they can be bought back to "as new" with a service. Once I worked that out (I'm a bit slow), it opened my eyes. A 10 year old lens is not old, a 30 year old lens is not looked down upon, but lovingly used. My current lenses are 45 and 55 years old, although I just sold the eldest, and they work like they were new.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

Leica lenses are metal construction and bombproof unlike abundant plastic autofocus crap from other major brands - seriously consider used glass

 

 

I agree about buying used (I and others have already advised this in the thread) but I don't share your apparent disdain for "autofocus crap from other brands". There have been numerous reported incidents of supposedly bombproof Leica lenses having the front of lenses come loose or the integrated hoods simply falling off. The version 4 35 Summicron has a plastic internal construction and has been known to shear into two parts.  Leica S lenses (admittedly not M but still "Leica lenses") have a poor reputation at present for failing AF. Maybe I don't read Canon or Nikon forums enough but I don't get the sense that their "plastic crap" is plagued by problems nor have I ever experienced problems myself with any of the lenses of those brands that I have bought over the years.

Edited February 25, 2017 by wattsy