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Discussing Leica lenses on Micro 4/3rds


jaapv

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I am reverting to my M9/MM1 for digital RF shooting, M6 and M3 and Barnacks for film and moving out of the Leica platform for the rest

The M240 and R lenses will be on the block after one last outing in a couple of months and I'll reduce the M lens collection too.

The DMR, still doubting, but maybe it will move on too...

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Dear Jaap - I find it sad that you're moving away from the Leica platform after all these years.  I can understand why you would no longer use long R lenses on either the M240 or the SL - In my experience it's not a good experience with either of these bodies.  With the M240 the EVF never hacked it.  With the SL, the lack of IS and AF make using long lenses a pain in the a*** (especially with the EVF where magnified focusing can get so shaky).

What I can't understand is why you've taken so strongly against the M10.  I've now been using it for several weeks and I'm blown away by how nice it is to use - and with the latest firmware - how good the EVF is.  Don't like the ISO dial?  Sorry - my experience is that it's intuitive and practical in use.  No video?  Hmm... I would have been happy to have it for occasional use but I'm not grieving the lack of it either, and the compensatory pleasures of the slim body, great menu system, outstanding image quality and overall satisfaction in use make up for this.

 

Why not keep the Ms for 21 through to 90 and get an Olympus with pro prime or zoom lenses for a fraction of the price (and weight) of the SL or a full frame DSLR set up?  The OM-D EM-1 Mk II is an outstanding camera by all reports (talk to Jono about this) and will happily go on safari with you...

 

Jaap: you seem angry or disappointed, or am I wrong?

 

Chris: I read that Jaap is going back to M9 and MM1.

 

So I take it that for safari's Jaap leaves Leica and that he keeps his M's for the "street", photojournalistic, candid work. Which is the way it should be. Obviously the SL is for him not the best choice for him for the domain where formerly the SLR reigned.

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Whatever floats anyone's boat is fine with me - but my £0.02 is that I frequently change ISO within a range of a couple of stops.  Hence I regard it as analagous to an exposure control, even if that taxonomy is imprecise. Digital photography has moved it up the order of priority for quick adjustment.  So I like the top wheel control concept.

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Dear Jaap - I find it sad that you're moving away from the Leica platform after all these years.  I can understand why you would no longer use long R lenses on either the M240 or the SL - In my experience it's not a good experience with either of these bodies.  With the M240 the EVF never hacked it.  With the SL, the lack of IS and AF make using long lenses a pain in the a*** (especially with the EVF where magnified focusing can get so shaky).

What I can't understand is why you've taken so strongly against the M10.  I've now been using it for several weeks and I'm blown away by how nice it is to use - and with the latest firmware - how good the EVF is.  Don't like the ISO dial?  Sorry - my experience is that it's intuitive and practical in use.  No video?  Hmm... I would have been happy to have it for occasional use but I'm not grieving the lack of it either, and the compensatory pleasures of the slim body, great menu system, outstanding image quality and overall satisfaction in use make up for this.

 

Why not keep the Ms for 21 through to 90 and get an Olympus with pro prime or zoom lenses for a fraction of the price (and weight) of the SL or a full frame DSLR set up?  The OM-D EM-1 Mk II is an outstanding camera by all reports (talk to Jono about this) and will happily go on safari with you...

Dear Chris - I'm not moving away from Leica completely, I'm keeping the M9/MM1 and film Ms.

 

I  went for the Panasonic GX8 with their Leica lenses, ( Summiluxes 15 and 25 and Vario-Elmar 100-400, all of them brilliant optics) on an excellent sensor. The Olympus does not match completely to these.

I already took the GX8 into the mountains for the last two weeks - the M240 spent its time in the hotel safe for the most part. :(

 

The M10 is simply too expensive to add for the limited use it would see. I am not upset about the M10, it was simply the catalyst because it took the M series further away from my main uses. I have no real objection to the ISO dial per se, my issue is with the theoretical difference to exposure and shutter speed. Purism reigns in Leica Land, after all. ;)

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[...] I already took the GX8 into the mountains for the last two weeks - the M240 spent its time in the hotel safe for the most part. :(

The M10 is simply too expensive to add for the limited use it would see. [...]

 

Same feeling here. I am tired of bringing two cameras for travels and outings. As much as i like rangefinders i want to use my M lenses in EVF mode when i need so. But my M240 is ridiculously sluggish there and the M10 has still one second blackout times more or less. My ten years old DSLRs did way better. As a result of this, i still use my M240 and M8.2 at home for the fun of it but i end up bringing out a Sony or Fuji camera only in my bag. With M or R lenses though so the dark side of the force is not yet the winner...

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It will get too little use. But I agree, I will be quite sad to see it go. Still, time left to think it over.

I went through the exchange and still processing it. Does it mean GX8 alone will cover everything for your need in mountains?

 

I am curious because I have pared down my M lens usage to only 28 and 90 for my hikes/backpacking and I don't need anything more. M240 works brilliantly for that usage.

Edit: typos

Edited by jmahto
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I love my M10 for general photography, but I vastly prefer a m43 system for hikes. The technology packed in those cameras are brilliant. The latest EM1.2 for example, almost negates the need for a tripod, as it's hybrid stabilization allows for 5 to 10 second hand-held exposures. It's also weather-sealed and there's the hi-res 80MP RAW's, which are perfect for landscapes. Lastly, the weight factor and lens selection makes it superior to any Leica in the mountains.

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My experience too. The GX8 with  Summiluxes 15 and 25 weighs far less and is more compact than an M240 with two lenses, is more versatile in use and renders Leica-level quality, unless you go high ISO or print over A3. (20 MP).\

In your case it would be the Summilux 15 and Nocticron 42.5. Brilliant!

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Each to their own but it was the GX8 that sent me packing from M43.

 

I bought into M43 early with the Olympus EP1 which was a delight to own - I'd go so far as to say the first digital camera I loved. I upgraded to the E-PL5 a few years later and it produced better images but less fun in the process. About a year ago I compared the latest PEN with the GX8 and chose the Panasonic only to regret that very quickly. It was ridiculously complex with 15 user definable buttons and dials and it delivered such dull and lifeless JPEGs. True, the RAW files were OK if I could be bothered to PP them but I didn't think it unreasonable to expect decent OOC JPEGs from a £1000 camera.

 

The built in EVF and the magnified centre at the half-press were both a delight. But that's all.

 

I felt that M43 was going no-where and it was time to get out of there. Traded it all in and now I'm all Leica (except a little Canon G9X when I'm travelling super-light). 

 

Cheers,

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I'm invested in m43 and Leica M

The Panasonic GX80 does superb image stabilized video and is very small and light ideal for hiking with the Leica/Panasonic 15/1.7.

However the tonality is not up to the same level I see from the Leica M9 and M lenses.

With improving dynamic range on the m43 sensors, it seems there has not been a corresponding increase in ADC bit depth to maintain micro-contrast and signal to noise.

The M10 is on order and I expect the same use model to continue - m43 for snapshots and video ; M10 and film M for more considered work.

The M.240 was never in the running - it fell short of being a good one camera does it all option.

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I'm invested in m43 and Leica M

The Panasonic GX80 does superb image stabilized video and is very small and light ideal for hiking with the Leica/Panasonic 15/1.7.

However the tonality is not up to the same level I see from the Leica M9 and M lenses.

With improving dynamic range on the m43 sensors, it seems there has not been a corresponding increase in ADC bit depth to maintain micro-contrast and signal to noise.

The M10 is on order and I expect the same use model to continue - m43 for snapshots and video ; M10 and film M for more considered work.

The M.240 was never in the running - it fell short of being a good one camera does it all option.

 

 

I cannot say that I find much to complain about.. GX8 + Summilux 15

The GX80 is, of course the "lesser"camera. Having said that, I never do OOC JPGs, on any camera.

 

 

 

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Each to their own but it was the GX8 that sent me packing from M43.

 

I bought into M43 early with the Olympus EP1 which was a delight to own - I'd go so far as to say the first digital camera I loved. I upgraded to the E-PL5 a few years later and it produced better images but less fun in the process. About a year ago I compared the latest PEN with the GX8 and chose the Panasonic only to regret that very quickly. It was ridiculously complex with 15 user definable buttons and dials and it delivered such dull and lifeless JPEGs. True, the RAW files were OK if I could be bothered to PP them but I didn't think it unreasonable to expect decent OOC JPEGs from a £1000 camera.

 

The built in EVF and the magnified centre at the half-press were both a delight. But that's all.

 

I felt that M43 was going no-where and it was time to get out of there. Traded it all in and now I'm all Leica (except a little Canon G9X when I'm travelling super-light). 

 

Cheers,

 

You are absolutely right about the JPEG quality, but I'd rather sit home editing RAW's than take 10+ lbs of Canikon gear into the mountains. With a m43 system you've got 14-800mm covered in a small lightweight backpack.

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It is a very nice little lens; despite being PanaLeica, it really renders on a Leica level. The other two I have, the Summilux 25 and the Vario-Elmar 100-400 are fully worthy of the Leica label too.

I suspect that some of the complaints about "flat rendering" stem from the use of Panasonic lenses, which are clearly pitched as entry-level.

With a colour depth of 23.5 and DR of 12.6 (DXO)  the sensor cannot be the culprit.

Or, possibly, the JPG output is not quite what one would wish.

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My experience too. The GX8 with  Summiluxes 15 and 25 weighs far less and is more compact than an M240 with two lenses, is more versatile in use and renders Leica-level quality, unless you go high ISO or print over A3. (20 MP).\

In your case it would be the Summilux 15 and Nocticron 42.5. Brilliant!

 

I looked up published weights (from B&H) and I don't see any weight advantage for my backpacking usage (28mm and 90mm).

 

(GX-8) 487g + (summilux 15)115g + (Nocticron 42.5) 425g = 1027g

  $900 + $500 + $1300= $2300

  battery life 330shots

 

(M240) 680g + (28Cron)270g + (90macro elmar) 230g = 1180g

  $$$$$$ (of course)

  battery life 900 shots (this matters when you are away for couple of nights)

 

If I am starting out afresh then it may make sense to go M43 route, but for me it doesn't make sense to switch. Outside backpacking usage, I also use M240 as general purpose camera with 50lux at home and few15mm usage (I always like those). For occasional tele lens usage I can live with MF lens on Nex-6.

 

The only thing missing in my M240 kit is long AF lens for wildlife etc. Certainly 100-400 panaleica seriously tilts the scale in GX-8's favor. I can see that. If I did wildlife then I certainly would be conflicted. But then M line (M11, M12...) would have never satisfied this need. Choice would have been SL or other mirrorless.

 

After this analysis I am not tempted for M43 to achieve compact and lightweight setup. M240 will do just fine. :)

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I looked up published weights (from B&H) and I don't see any weight advantage for my backpacking usage (28mm and 90mm).

 

(GX-8) 487g + (summilux 15)115g + (Nocticron 42.5) 425g = 1027gt]

  $900 + $500 + $1300= $2300

  battery life 330shots

 

(M240) 680g + (28Cron)270g + (90macro elmar) 230g = 1180g

  $$$$$$ (of course)

  battery life 900 shots (this matters when you are away for couple of nights)

 

But the more apples to apples comparison with the 90 M-E would be the Panasonic/Leica 45 Macro Elmarit f2.8, which weighs only 225g.

 

Jeff

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But the more apples to apples comparison with the 90 M-E would be the Panasonic/Leica 45 Macro Elmarit f2.8, which weighs only 225g.

 

Jeff

Well, that would be further saving of 200g (diff of Nocticron 42.5 and 45 macro elmarit). Total difference of 353g (30% saving off M240 setup as in my package). I can't ignore that.

 

However it is still apples vs oranges. Elmarit on M43 is equivalent to f/5.6 on FF (2 stops down).

 

As I said in my analysis, if I am starting out afresh then M43 seems quite appealing now since sensor and lenses have matured quite a bit. There is huge advantage in cost (duh) but the weight advantage is marginal. With that increased weight of M, you are getting that little bit of extra in sensor and lens performance therefore I am not complaining.

 

I guess SL is more of a competition to every mirrorless out there. Not M.

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I looked up published weights (from B&H) and I don't see any weight advantage for my backpacking usage (28mm and 90mm).

 

(GX-8) 487g + (summilux 15)115g + (Nocticron 42.5) 425g = 1027g

  $900 + $500 + $1300= $2300

  battery life 330shots

 

(M240) 680g + (28Cron)270g + (90macro elmar) 230g = 1180g

  $$$$$$ (of course)

  battery life 900 shots (this matters when you are away for couple of nights)

 

If I am starting out afresh then it may make sense to go M43 route, but for me it doesn't make sense to switch. Outside backpacking usage, I also use M240 as general purpose camera with 50lux at home and few15mm usage (I always like those). For occasional tele lens usage I can live with MF lens on Nex-6.

 

The only thing missing in my M240 kit is long AF lens for wildlife etc. Certainly 100-400 panaleica seriously tilts the scale in GX-8's favor. I can see that. If I did wildlife then I certainly would be conflicted. But then M line (M11, M12...) would have never satisfied this need. Choice would have been SL or other mirrorless.

 

After this analysis I am not tempted for M43 to achieve compact and lightweight setup. M240 will do just fine. :)

My calculation is different:

GX 8 485 gr,         M240  680 gr.

.

SX 15  115 gr       SX 24 500 gr.

 

SX 25  200 gr       SX  50 asph chrome  455 gr

 

Vario Elmar 985 gr Vario-Elmar  1750 gr + 1.4 APO ext. 385 gr.

 

 

That is 1735 grams vs 3770 grs. Plus the 4/3rds fits into a Billingham for Leica bag and the 240  set needs a Hadley Pro Presstop.

Nor did I calculate the weight difference of the batteries, the sensor cleaning gear needed for the M etc. And I have 800 mm at the long end instead of 400 mm, do not need a shoulder stock, etc.

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