colonel Posted February 23, 2017 Share #41 Posted February 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) There is nothing wrong in changing system occasionally It gives us new perspectives I often spend time with other systems. I always come back to M, but its great fun Sometimes comparison between different systems is just a bit pointless as its apples against oranges I do think the PEN-F is almost as exciting to pick up as a Leica. I just dont like what happens when i press the menu button 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Hi colonel, Take a look here Discussing Leica lenses on Micro 4/3rds. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ramarren Posted February 23, 2017 Share #42 Posted February 23, 2017 ... The M10 is simply too expensive to add for the limited use it would see. I am not upset about the M10, it was simply the catalyst because it took the M series further away from my main uses. I have no real objection to the ISO dial per se, my issue is with the theoretical difference to exposure and shutter speed. Purism reigns in Leica Land, after all. I have no idea what you're talking about here ... the "theoretical difference to exposure and shutter speed" ... eh?? What does that mean? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share #43 Posted February 23, 2017 Exposure: Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light that strikes the sensor and the manner in which the light is captured.(eg DOF, motion) In other words: aperture and shutter speed create the image. The ISO dial controls the way in which the camera handles the output of the sensor. Theoretically it could just as well be on the computer, only the LCD screen benefits by the in-camera ISO setting. For that reason I think that the ISO control should have less prominence than shutterspeed, aperture and focus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 23, 2017 Share #44 Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Jaap, I take your point. But the ISO dial is not strictly about handling the output from the sensor - it also sets how the light meter responds to light and sets exposure (in A shutter mode) or recommends exposure (using the aperture and shutter speed controls manually). Leica M ttl-metered cameras have had an analog ISO/ASA/DIN dial, going all the way back to the M5: http://www.35mmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/DSC7061.jpg Even unmetered Ms have an ISO "reminder" dial on the back, because it is a good thing to know: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1563/26437093280_a99d575f80_o.jpg If I used an M5/6/7 and wanted to "handle the output" of Tri-X in poor light by push-processing chemically - I would set the ISO dial to the required ISO of 800 or 3200, meter and expose accordingly, and change development time. More accurately, I would set the dial to an E.I. (exposure index) of 800 or 3200 - since the "base ISO" of the film would still be 400, like it says on the box. http://www.guidetofilmphotography.com/exposure-index.html The fact that a digital camera now does the push-processing for me doesn't change the underlying equation. Except I guess a digital sensitivity setting control really should be labelled an E.I. dial or E.I. menu item - the "ISO" (base sensitivity) of an M10 sensor is still always 100. But most people these days don't know what "E.I." means, any more than they remember ASA and DIN - ISO has become the universal term for "the meter/film/processing setting." So an ISO dial does three things - reminds the photographer of the intended/necessary amount of (post-)processing, biases the metering accordingly - and only then "handles the output" from the sensor to get something approaching a normal brightness range in the final image. I'd also argue that ISO helps in controlling DOF and motion, just like the other controls. In my youth I photographed basketball in dark rural high school gymnasiums. Nominal ISO 400 film speed (all we had back then) required exposures of 1/30th sec @ f/1.4 = blurry action (even a Noctilux would have failed!). I had no leeway to control shutter speed and aperture - I was forced to use 1/250th and f/1.4 to get anything usable, with no other option. Which my meter told me amounted to an E.I. of 3200. So I "handled the output" of the film by developing for 15 minutes in high-powered developer. The ISO/E.I. was my only available variable for controlling the outcome. In similar lighting, but with less motion to capture, I might have wanted to use f/5.6 for DOF control. Which would have meant 1/2 sec at ISO 400 - OR using 1/15th (just barely hand-holdable with a 28mm) and ISO/E.I. 3200 - with appropriate "output handling" in the darkroom. Now, with the M10 or other digital camera, I could of course just leave the ISO at 100, ignore the meter, pick my required SS and f-stop manually based on the motion-stopping or DoF desired, and then brighten the resulting pitch-black .dngs on the computer. (I did that with the Digilux 2 .jpgs, due to the enforced Panasonic noise reduction at 200 and 400) But why? You might just as well argue that film should only come in ISO 50 - since we can push-process that to any E.I. as well. Edited February 23, 2017 by adan 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted February 24, 2017 Share #45 Posted February 24, 2017 I am reverting to my M9/MM1 for digital RF shooting, M6 and M3 and Barnacks for film and moving out of the Leica platform for the rest The M240 and R lenses will be on the block after one last outing in a couple of months and I'll reduce the M lens collection too. The DMR, still doubting, but maybe it will move on too... Why keep the M9 and sell the M240? I would have expected you to keep the 240 and sell the M9? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share #46 Posted February 24, 2017 I feel the M9 and MM1 are a better match; if only for the batteries and chargers. I may change my mind yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share #47 Posted February 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Indeed, unless M4/3 photogs use M lenses but how many of them are doing that? As much as i may like my little Pana LX100 i don't quite see the point. I do use a Summicron 40 and Color-Heliar 75 on it... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted February 24, 2017 Share #48 Posted February 24, 2017 Please add the Nocticron to your PanaLeica collection. I rate it as the best lens in the entire m43 lineup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share #49 Posted February 25, 2017 I may, (probably will) but let's get used to the first steps first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share #50 Posted February 26, 2017 A test shot of the 100-400 (200-800 equ.) DG Vario Elmar @ 800, wide open, handheld. I cannot say that the lens disappoints Grotty light and raining... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269711-discussing-leica-lenses-on-micro-43rds/?do=findComment&comment=3221830'>More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted March 19, 2017 Share #51 Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My current combination of choice for a specific project … Leica 4/3 format lens with 28-300mm FF equivalent coupled to Panasonic GH3 via Lumix GMW MA1 4/3 to M4/3 adapter … lightweight grab and go solution and lens performs admirably throughout its range. The lens dates from 2007 and allegedly works very well with Olympus 4/3 1.4x and 2x extenders giving up to 600mm FF equivalent … but I have not acquired the extenders … yet dunk Edited March 19, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My current combination of choice for a specific project … Leica 4/3 format lens with 28-300mm FF equivalent coupled to Panasonic GH3 via Lumix GMW MA1 4/3 to M4/3 adapter … lightweight grab and go solution and lens performs admirably throughout its range. The lens dates from 2007 and allegedly works very well with Olympus 4/3 1.4x and 2x extenders giving up to 600mm FF equivalent … but I have not acquired the extenders … yet dunk ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269711-discussing-leica-lenses-on-micro-43rds/?do=findComment&comment=3236803'>More sharing options...
biglouis Posted April 20, 2017 Share #52 Posted April 20, 2017 Interesting to see a thread here about m43rds - especially as yesterday Panasonic announced the second of three new 'Leica' branded lenses for the m43rds system, the vario 8-16, which is a UWA zoom for m43rds bodies. At one time in the past I thought perhaps Panasonic and Leica were having a soft divorce but it seems that in the last 12 months they have grown back together again. I now use m43rds as my main camera system. I do own a Leica Q which I use rarely and I will probably will never return to a rangefinder system. Yes, the cameras are lovely as objects and possibly even satisfying to work with but they are impractical for my straightforward needs. There are two absolute stars of the Panasonic system, the 12-35/2.8 and the 35-100/2.8. Sharp, lovely colour draw and good contrast. Clearly a complete rip-off of Leica lens formulas, thankfully. The 20/1.7 which is not Leica branded is unashamedly a Summicron by another name. I've always felt that Leica have missed a brand extension opportunity by not directly selling m43rds as part of their product line. The GX80 which is a tiny gem of a camera combined with the 15/1.7 and Elmarit 45/2.8 would make a great digital CL system - much more so that any variant of the Leica Q. And it would bring consumers into the Leica family from which a number would then progress to the Q, M or SL. I've also been using the Lumix Leica DG 100-400 for just on a year now. I got one of the first copies in the UK. It is capable of stellar results with my GX8 and in fact in bird hides it is interesting to see users with monster lenses from Canon and Nikon who can only get to maybe 600mm while the crop factor on the GX8 gives me an equivalent 800mm. The shot below was taken standing over the shoulders of two other photographers who by the very nature of their bazooka lenses had to be seated and using them on tripods. That kind of versatility is an asset in wildlife photography but I doubt hardcore wildlife photographers would consider it a credible system. Like many others, about 18 months ago I thought m43rds was dead. Now I am beginning to wonder if it will outlive Nikon and Canon, so many professionals are appearing on the internet and especially YouTube extolling the virtues of small, lightweight yet powerful mirrorless m43rds systems. Just my two cents. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269711-discussing-leica-lenses-on-micro-43rds/?do=findComment&comment=3258264'>More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 20, 2017 Share #53 Posted April 20, 2017 Louis, M4/3 advocates have 'never had it so good' as regards lens choices and it's so tempting to consider e.g. the PanaLeica100-40mm. I'm torn between (1) resurrecting / expanding my M4/3 system and (2) acquiring an ancient s/h Canon FD 500/4.5 for use with my SL. So far the latter is more tempting for the faster aperture and £price … but it's a close decision. Some professional wildlife photographers use M4/3 but I'm not so impressed with the dynamic range observed in some of their images. The M4/3 system's portability is a 'plus' especially on a hot day but when I look at e.g. Doug Herr's FF bird images I'm reminded that a good big'un will enable better quality than smaller format options. Yes, FF is bulkier / heavier - but the extra effort required (no gain without pain) can pay dividends i.e. help achieve potentially better results. The shallower DOF achievable with FF is another deal breaker; the always wider/deeper DOF achievable with M4/3 at like for like apertures is a -ve for some. I'm travelling to view / test the Canon FD 500/4.5; if it's reasonably portable i.e. fits my backpack and the test results are OK I'll likely succumb … especially as it's usable for Leica Forum / Leica Society imaging when hitched to my SL. Leica Camera AG continue to offer Leica badge engineered Panasonic compact zoom cameras but TTBOMK Leica is still a member of the original 4/3 partnership comprising Panasonic, Olympus, Leica, Fuji, Sanyo, Sigma, and Kodak - so maybe it's possible for Leica to compliment their PanaLeica M4/3 lenses by 'Leicafying' e.g. a GH5 … in the same way that they've 'Leicafied' Panasonic compact zoom cameras. A Leica M4/3 ICL camera would definitely tempt me but their resources are likely fully stretched trying to cope with SL/TL and M development. Best wishes dunk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted April 20, 2017 Share #54 Posted April 20, 2017 Dunk, you make very good points. I should have added that my back is entering its 7th decade of operation and it is not up to the weight of heavier systems. For me, m43rds is the most viable solution. That said, I would be tempted - were budget not a constraint - by the new D500 and the PF-E 300/4 plus 1.4x extender. Adding up the weight it is not so far over that of my current rig with the GX8 and 100-400. I would of course lose out at the maximum end but I would hope that the cleaner high iso would be a benefit in England's dim winter weather (a definite draw back on m43rds). There is one aspect of m43rds which your SL shares which I think is such a bonus as to outweigh considering the NIkon, or the popular 7DmKII for birding. The EVF. I can be shooting a bird and adjusting the EVF and seeing in real time the impact on the image. That to me is more than just a nice to have. I am coming to the conclusion that what I will probably do is upgrade to the GH5, which without the AA filter on the sensor offers a bit more detail (I've noticed it on my GX80 which is has no AA filter) and in the tests I've seen appears to have a 1-stop improvement in shadow noise. I'm also tempted to try and swing my finances to allow the Olympus 300/4 which combined with the GH5 may be as good as it can get on m43rds. I do like Canon glass, you really can't go wrong with it. Can you get an adapter which maintains AF on the SL? LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 20, 2017 Share #55 Posted April 20, 2017 Louis, The Canon FD 500/4.5 is a 30 plus years young manual focus Canon FD lens; I have the Novoflex EF to SL adapter which allegedly enables Canon EF AF on the SL but I only use it with my manual focus EOS 24mm TS lens. EOS lenses' AF speeds on the SL via the Novoflex smart adapter are too slow / unreliable according TLF members' experiences thus I would not consider using an EOS tele lens on my SL … but the Novoflex EOS to SL adapter is OK for manual focusing and metering. The M4/3 Olympus 300/4 has excellent reviews and it's portable - but the DOF wide open is only equivalent to that at f8 on FF format … which for some photographers is too deep/broad when exploring differential focus. The older 4/3 Olympus 300/2.8 is a better bet for differential focus but even that is only equivalent to an f5.6 DOF on FF. Some M4/3 bird photographers still use the Olympus 300/2.8 via the available Olympus and Panasonic 4/3 to M4/3 adapters … it's a highly regarded lens. If there was a Leica badged Panasonic GH5 I'd consider the s/h Olympus 300/2.8 4/3 lens currently listed by WEX … but it's over twice the price of the aforementioned s/h Canon FD 500/4.5. Another -ve with M4/3 is the fact that Olympus/Panasonic competition inevitably results in their current camera stables being superseded by improved models relatively quickly - with resultant lower trade-in values. Decisions, decisions … but at the end of the day it's likely that potentially shallower DOF will be the deciding factor for me ... hence I'm still leaning towards the FD 500/4.5 for use with my SL … even though it's a heavy load to transport. Regards dunk 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted April 21, 2017 Share #56 Posted April 21, 2017 Dunk, if I owned a SL - (if only!) - I would definitely go down the route you are planning first. Trying long glass on it should be awesome. The sensor in my Q is outstanding - and the SL one is similar so it must be even better. It would be interesting to use it for birding. The Q is now the zenith of my Leica ownership. I love the camera. I would love a system built around a body of that size and some lenses for it. Second best for me instead is the Panasonic system with the Leica branded lenses I have now assembled. Due to a tricky back I can't lift too much weight so you can understand how the lightweight Panasonic bodies and the similarly lightweight 100-400 make birding for me possible. When the SL was announced I thought that the body plus the 24-90 would allow me to have a single body/lens system for all my urban needs. However, when I tried to lift the SL+24-90 attached my back muscles pretty much went into spasm. This is not a criticism but it is a system for people in better health than I am. Good luck with your choice and hopefully we will see some results. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 21, 2017 Share #57 Posted April 21, 2017 Hi Louis, I understand about your back and how it's risky carrying heavy cameras/lenses. I experienced a back problem myself years ago which left me limping, unable to sit properly, and unable to carry a heavy Billingham bag for weeks. I had to sleep on the floor for weeks during the recovery period. I then consulted a qualified physiotherapist who gave me various therapies and exercises which eased the discomfort but subsequently also consulted a qualified Alexander Technique practitioner / teacher who showed me why I was experiencing back discomfort. He taught me how I should sit, rise, stand, breathe, walk, carry, relax … and more. Long story short the Alexander Technique exercises and learning, gradually remedied the problem over a period of several months but there was noticeable improvement with the first few weeks. Apart from the occasional lapse (which I know how to remedy) I've been free of back issues for over 20 years. Nowadays I can manage a 6.8kg Leitz Telyt S 800mm f6.3 lens when the occasion arises … but with its accessories and tripods needs a trolley. I would not attempt to carry it for any distance and it's far too large to use in a hide or to 'trolley' over rough terrain for birding: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/253192-leica-sl-image-thread-post-your-examples-here/?p=3225740 The Canon 500/4.5 weighs 2.6kg and it should be OK but I'll try it for size/weight first in a backpack before committing to purchase. Look forward to seeing more of your 100-400mm images. Best wishes dunk 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted April 21, 2017 Share #58 Posted April 21, 2017 Dunk, that is awesome - I know Ally Pally very well - never thought of it as a viewing point for the London Skyline. That is an amazing setup and I can see why you need some serious solutions to move it around. I am impressed that there is no visible atmosphere in the shots, as well. I might take my 100-400 up to Ally Pally and take some comparison shots as it is only a bus ride up the road from me. I am very near Primrose Hill so I may try that as a viewing point. I've shot the skyline very successfully with both my Sigma DP2M camera as well as in the past with my M8 and Summilux 35. Incidentally, as I was passing Nicholas Cameras in Camden Town today he had a EF 500/4.5 in the window. Very dingy body but from what I could see of the glass on the front it looked in good condition. Probably some paps lens! All the best Louis I might take my 100-400 up to Ally Pally and take some comparison shots. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 21, 2017 Share #59 Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) Louis, When I went to Alexandra Palace last year, at dusk we were approached by a uniformed security officer who advised that I should have paid a £10 tripod fee. I was told to pay in the pub because the office? (wherever that is) was closed … but the bar person refused to take the £10 and advised he was unaware of the 'rule'. Might be best to use a beanbag rather than a tripod when you visit. I deliberately chose a day after a rainstorm to try and ensure a clear atmosphere but the images still showed a colour cast … hence converted to B&W. I'm planning to try again … I learnt a lot on the first trip and wish to repeat some of the shots. Some amazing compressed perspective images are possible; nocturnal shots test a lens' coma correction. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/264783-3-long-distance-views-of-central-and-east-london-from-alexandra-palace/?p=3116340 … I'm colour blind so apologies for any colour casts. Atmospherics / thermals can play havoc with long distance photography. Look forward to seeing your 400mm (800mm FF equiv) comparison shots Louis. Regards dunk Edited April 21, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 27, 2017 Author Share #60 Posted April 27, 2017 Hi guys. Interesting discussion I've just moved a similar one into this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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