M10 flash issue

[jaapv]

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On Friday, I have to photograph a group of managers in a tight location outdoors (picked by the client) which will be on a 21mm, so I need a viewer and off camera flash to light the eyes. Then at the same shoot photographs during a presentation to prospective clients for my client. The main request was to be discreet. Ideal for the Leica.

 

So it would over complicate the shoots if I had to have two different camera outfits. If I was buying again, I think I would go Sony but I am too heavily committed to Leica now to change.

 

I am not bashing Leica, if fact I enjoy shooting on the Leica M more that any other camera system I have used over the years. It is just that Leica seems to have forgotten that if they are making a professional camera, then there are some feature the really need on the camera. An ability to fire flash while using the EVF is right up there on the top of the list, in my opinion. The M240 has it but not the new M10.

I'm afraid that Leica does not have the professional market  as a target for the M. It is clearly aimed at the high-end amateur market. If asked they will probably give the same answer they have been giving all along: "For that we offer the SL"...

[jto555]

Hi Jaap, I think you are right about Leica not seeing the M as a Pro camera. The big issue Leica has with the pro market is their back-up. With Canon I can walk into my main dealer with a broken camera/lens and walk out with a loaner until mine is fixed. The investment for Leica to compete at that level is huge.

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[Stef63]

I'm afraid that Leica does not have the professional market  as a target for the M. It is clearly aimed at the high-end amateur market. If asked they will probably give the same answer they have been giving all along: "For that we offer the SL"...

 

True. This was painfully clear at Photokina last year.  80% of the Leica exhibition floor space was dedicated to what they called there the Pro Market with the SL and S and with a focus on video for the SL.  The other 20% of the exhibition was separated  by a wall.  On this side the M sat nicely next to the Sofort.  Access to the pro area was by invitation.

[jaapv]

Exactly my thinking. With the M240 the M series was moving towards versatility and  a PJ's tool, with the M10 they reversed the trend towards nostalgia.

[jdlaing]

I would substitute the word simplicity for nostalgia.

[Steve Spencer]

Exactly my thinking. With the M240 the M series was moving towards versatility and  a PJ's tool, with the M10 they reversed the trend towards nostalgia.

 

Really you think the M10 is the reverse toward nostalgia. It wasn't the M262, or the M262D--those don't cater to nostalgia at all? Where is the sarcasm icon? What about the anniversary editions? What about the 28 Summaron? Jaap, I think you know that Leica always has and always will cater to nostalgia. That you think the M10 is a new trend in catering to nostalgia somehow seems out of touch with what Leica has done over the 4 years specifically but really what they always have done. Neither do I see the M240 as really much of a move toward a versatile PJ tool. It had some added functionality to be sure, but a move to a PJ tool? I can't really see that and if it was there plan it was an incredibly bad plan. The whole market for cameras is shrinking, but one of the areas that is shrinking fastest is professional PJ. It hardly exists at all in North America any more, so if there strategy was to aim at that market with the M240 I am glad they abandoned it as I think that is clearly a losing strategy with dramatically shrinking journalism budgets the includes a huge reduction in the number of PJs. 

The truth is that we don't know for sure where Leica will go with the M10 and its variants. They could do a lot of different things, but I expect them to cater to nostalgia and although that isn't my cup of tea I don't really object to them doing so. I certainly hope they don't pursue professional PJs, however, as I think that is an incredibly bad idea given the way that market has shrunk and likely will continue to shrink.

[Stef63]

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Exactly my thinking. With the M240 the M series was moving towards versatility and  a PJ's tool, with the M10 they reversed the trend towards nostalgia.

 

I personally would not call it nostalgia as the M10 for my needs is a better tool than the M240 was.  But certainly Leica made it's direction more clear now.  The SL and S is for the pro and for video.  I'm not sure they will succeed with their current product portfolio in that market.   But I wish them luck.

The M is the camera for still photography and the best tool to match the one area Leica is still stellar in... their exceptional M lenses.  If you want fine optics and your needs are limited to what rangefinder photography (for personal use) offers, the M10 is a very good camera and a better one than the M240 or M9 or M8.  But I agree with you that at least now the cards are on the table.  We know where Leica is heading too.....   until they change their mind of course.

[Dirk Mandeville]

Exactly my thinking. With the M240 the M series was moving towards versatility and  a PJ's tool, with the M10 they reversed the trend towards nostalgia.

I guess it's a sad comment on the state of modern photography when producing a compact, easy-to-use, highly capable camera designed to use some of the best lenses ever made is considered nostalgic. All because it lacks video.

[Paul J]

Everything about the M10 launch was nostalgia. The jazz music, The Leica UR being held along side at first reveal, the hood ornament ISO dial to look a film rewind knob, the "thin as film M" punch line.

 

Then there is the smoking gun on the website, one of the first headlines is "Working with the Leica M10 was like meeting up with an old friend"

 

All of it, Nostalgia. Nostalgia is a clever device it sells classic cameras to classic minded people and that is the intended sales group. It's just a shame the camera has been limited just for marketing purposes though, not photography, and what photography incorporates and has evolved into today. For the very reasons this camera is "easy-to-use, highly capable camera designed to use some of the best lenses ever made" and maybe more so than any other camera I know, is rather frustrating for it to be held back like this.

 

Personally speaking and for what it is worth, I prefer and like to honour the past, bring with it the things worth bringing if it has a purpose, and yet evolve, never bowing to it.

[jaapv]

Really you think the M10 is the reverse toward nostalgia. It wasn't the M262, or the M262D--those don't cater to nostalgia at all? Where is the sarcasm icon? What about the anniversary editions? What about the 28 Summaron? Jaap, I think you know that Leica always has and always will cater to nostalgia. That you think the M10 is a new trend in catering to nostalgia somehow seems out of touch with what Leica has done over the 4 years specifically but really what they always have done. Neither do I see the M240 as really much of a move toward a versatile PJ tool. It had some added functionality to be sure, but a move to a PJ tool? I can't really see that and if it was there plan it was an incredibly bad plan. The whole market for cameras is shrinking, but one of the areas that is shrinking fastest is professional PJ. It hardly exists at all in North America any more, so if there strategy was to aim at that market with the M240 I am glad they abandoned it as I think that is clearly a losing strategy with dramatically shrinking journalism budgets the includes a huge reduction in the number of PJs. 

The truth is that we don't know for sure where Leica will go with the M10 and its variants. They could do a lot of different things, but I expect them to cater to nostalgia and although that isn't my cup of tea I don't really object to them doing so. I certainly hope they don't pursue professional PJs, however, as I think that is an incredibly bad idea given the way that market has shrunk and likely will continue to shrink.

Well, if reducing functionality to be able to return to the shape of a 1954 design and copying a film rewind knob as an ISO dial isn't a return to nostalgia I don't know what is. With the 240 they tried to bring the camera in line with the developments of the 21st century, by introducing LV, EVF and Video. So no, no sarcasm, but a simple signaling of a significant change in direction.

[jaapv]

I guess it's a sad comment on the state of modern photography when producing a compact, easy-to-use, highly capable camera designed to use some of the best lenses ever made is considered nostalgic. All because it lacks video.

That is neither here nor there. The quality of the camera is not in doubt, thanks to some fairly predictable upgrades: A better viewfinder, a better EVF and a marginally better sensor, which could have been accomplished in a 240-style body (and then it could have had better video and flash functionality too, and an USB port, etc.

But no, the camera sells because it looks and feels more like a 1954 film camera.

[Steve Spencer]

Well, if reducing functionality to be able to return to the shape of a 1954 design and copying a film rewind knob as an ISO dial isn't a return to nostalgia I don't know what is. With the 240 they tried to bring the camera in line with the developments of the 21st century, by introducing LV, EVF and Video. So no, no sarcasm, but a simple signaling of a significant change in direction.

 

The problem with this argument in my view is that in the M240 they only brought the camera into the late 20th Century. The liveview was ridiculously hobbled, the EVF was the worst for any camera that had one, and the video was terrible and again the worst of any camera. This was not a modern camera, but a camera that at release was ten years behind the competition. With the M10 we get live view that really is functional and at least at the level of the competition. We get an EVF that very good and at least in the middle of the pack but probably in the top third of EVFs out there. We get a sensor that is fully in the middle of pack and all we lost was crappy video to be fully competitive in the every other aspect of the camera. All the M240 did was include modern features, but every one of those features was among  the worst implementations on the market. Yeah, we lost video but at least with the M10 the remains features are implemented well.

[Dirk Mandeville]

But no, the camera sells because it looks and feels more like a 1954 film camera.

The camera sells because it is the best digital M produced so far. Every feature that was lacking on the M8, M9, and M240 has been vastly improved (or, in the case of video, removed entirely). The camera is easier to operate, and has by far the best OVF, EVF, ISO range, and speed of any digital M to date. People don't buy cameras based solely on esthetics or form factor. They are certainly an important consideration, and Leica took them into account since many users were asking for a smaller camera that felt more like a film M. But to write the camera off as a trip down memory lane ignores the vast usability improvements over previous digital M's from those "fairly predictable upgrades."

[jaapv]

Those improvements could have been made just as easily, or even more easily, on a camera in the 240 form factor. Given that there have been 5 years of R&D time those were the least we could expect. However, the marketing priority is clearly to take the camera back to the original M. Nothing wrong with that, Leica made their decision in order to sell as many cameras as they can. But to deny the change of direction is a bit strange.

As it is, because they prioritized the form factor, they could not address better flash connectivity,  LENR issues, higher processing power, video improvements, LENR issues, a better EVF, etc, let alone a hybridisation of the optical viewfinder and other more esoteric possibilities.

[Steve Ash]

The improved form factor is a major and much appreciated improvement in my eyes.

 

 

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[jaapv]

Fair enough.

[Steve Spencer]

Those improvements could have been made just as easily, or even more easily, on a camera in the 240 form factor. Given that there have been 5 years of R&D time those were the least we could expect. However, the marketing priority is clearly to take the camera back to the original M. Nothing wrong with that, Leica made their decision in order to sell as many cameras as they can. But to deny the change of direction is a bit strange.

As it is, because they prioritized the form factor, they could not address better flash connectivity,  LENR issues, higher processing power, video improvements, LENR issues, a better EVF, etc, let alone a hybridisation of the optical viewfinder and other more esoteric possibilities.

 

Jaap, I see nothing in the form factor that prevents them from addressing flash connectivity. The could have done that and they still can. As Adan has shown us there is still a socket of some sort on the bottom of the camera. That may be able to do something--like make a grip possible. There easily could be a variant that could add a grip even if that socket doesn't allow one. And for flash I think a simple pass through for the EVF and hot shoe with a PC socket should be easy. I am holding in my hand the tilt add on for the Fuji GFX and it has that simple design (although it doesn't add a PC port because the camera has one, but adding one would be trivial). Nothing about the form factor prevents the adding of flash capability. How about LENR issues? Well I don't think the form factor is to blame here. They could have implemented changes in the M240 if a bigger form factor would solve these problems but they didn't. On LENR Leica just seems to be stubborn. A better EVF? Well the Visoflex 2 is awfully good as an EVF. It is very competitive with the Sony A7 series EVFs and it tilts (something I very much like). No, it is nowhere in the league of the SL and some of the new Panny cameras have very nice EVFs and the new Fuji GFX is probably second to the SL, but all things considered than Visoflex 2 is very good and very much in the ballpark of the EVF for the other FF 35mm mirrorless cameras. And I for one am super glad they didn't hybridize the viewfinder. I think the Fuji attempt at that is lame and I would much rather have two separate systems, on optical system and an EVF so each can be excellent to very good rather than one hybrid that is going to be a compromise on both the optical part and the EVF part.  So, that leaves us with video. Yes, they got rid of it, but they still could add it back with a variant, I don't know if they will but I expect they will if the market is there and if the market is not then it is pretty hard to fault them for excluding a feature for which there is not enough of a market to make it profitable.

[jaapv]

Yes, I do not like the Fuji attempt either, but I think that we could trust Leica to come up with a superior solution. It would really be a bonus to make the framelines single and corrected for distance.

As for the EVF, I think that if they would have been able to use a higher specified processor they could have used the top-end Panasonic technology.

 

But hey The camera is plenty good and I am happy for those whom it fits.

[cprotz]

I just changed to a M10M and realized in the studio that I can't have both, EVF and Flashtrigger at the same time 🙂

As I belong to the fraction of this discussion that want's it (and whose eye's profit from it after a long day or with bulky lenses that block the regular viewfinder), I want to check whether somebody found a solution in the mean time.

I quickly disassembled the 020 to find the connections as in the picture. My flashtrigger is a very simple solution that basically shortens the X contact and the ground.

When I understand the picture correctly then the X contact is the little pin between the board and it contacts the metal part  of the housing on the left.

Does anybody know whether it is safely possible to e.g. solder in a cable/plug that connects to the X and ground which is then used for an external flash plug with only ground and X (that's how I understood the cable solution somebody mentioned in the discussion).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rramesh]

Can you mount the EVF on top of a Phottix Strato flash trigger? It has a hotshoe duplicator on top of the trigger. The flash could be mounted on an extension bracket with the receiver.