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Cold M10 whether issues?


vikasmg

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Last week in Washington DC it was very cold (around 2 deg C) and twice I noticed an odd problem. I was primarily using a 35mm lens with the rangefinder though I had the EVF mounted. A couple of times I tried to switch to the digital viewfinder using Live View but it needed two or three pushes on th LV button to activate. Both in the EVF and the rear screen. The same problem with the Menu button. Nothing would show on the rear screen till I pressed the button two or three times.

 

The problem would go away soon after I went indoors.

 

I wondered if anyone else has experienced this problem.

 

- Vikas

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Im sure the operating temperature range will be in the manual. Usually it is something between 0 and 40 Centigrade.

Yes, it does say 0 to 40 C. SO I may have been just at the borderline or below.

 

Incidentally, while looking for that specification I spotted a curious line relating to the sensor:

>>

SENSOR

• Cosmic radiation (e.g. during flights) can cause pixel defects.

<<

Cosmic radiation through the aircraft body and baggage etc, through the camera body and all the way to the sensor! Sounds like science fiction!

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Incidentally, while looking for that specification I spotted a curious line relating to the sensor:

>>

SENSOR

• Cosmic radiation (e.g. during flights) can cause pixel defects.

<<

Cosmic radiation through the aircraft body and baggage etc, through the camera body and all the way to the sensor! Sounds like science fiction!

We need tin foil hats for our digi Leicas! :)

 

 

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Incidentally, while looking for that specification I spotted a curious line relating to the sensor:

>>

SENSOR

• Cosmic radiation (e.g. during flights) can cause pixel defects.

<<

Cosmic radiation through the aircraft body and baggage etc, through the camera body and all the way to the sensor! Sounds like science fiction!

 

 

It's not science fiction.  CCD, CMOS but also your flash cards are prone to damage when flying at high altitude (above 20000 ft).  All kind of particles from outer space are constantly bombing the earth.  They contain a lot of energy and they can penetrate into your camera and punch a hole through the insulation of a memory cell on a flash card or a pixel on a digital sensor.  This creates a leak and in extreme case can cause a hot pixel.  Depending on the error correction of a flash card or the noise reduction algorithm of a sensor however things get most of the time unnoticed or have little effect.

 

Due to the magnetic field of the earth that is concentrated towards the poles more cosmic particles are present there than above the equator. So a camera is more at risk on a polar route.

 

You can avoid cosmic rays by putting your camera inside a box made of concrete.  You will need at least 1,5 m walls  :o

Edited by Stef63
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It's not science fiction.  CCD, CMOS but also your flash cards are prone to damage when flying at high altitude (above 20000 ft).  All kind of particles from outer space are constantly bombing the earth.  They contain a lot of energy and they can penetrate into your camera and punch a hole through the insulation of a memory cell on a flash card or a pixel on a digital sensor.  This creates a leak and in extreme case can cause a hot pixel.  Depending on the error correction of a flash card or the noise reduction algorithm of a sensor however things get most of the time unnoticed or have little effect.

 

Due to the magnetic field of the earth that is concentrated towards the poles more cosmic particles are present there than above the equator. So a camera is more at risk on a polar route.

 

You can avoid cosmic rays by putting your camera inside a box made of concrete.  You will need at least 1,5 m walls  :o

Should be OK, as long as you can bring it on as hand luggage... :lol:

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Last week in Washington DC it was very cold (around 2 deg C) and twice I noticed an odd problem. I was primarily using a 35mm lens with the rangefinder though I had the EVF mounted. A couple of times I tried to switch to the digital viewfinder using Live View but it needed two or three pushes on th LV button to activate. Both in the EVF and the rear screen. The same problem with the Menu button. Nothing would show on the rear screen till I pressed the button two or three times.

 

The problem would go away soon after I went indoors.

 

I wondered if anyone else has experienced this problem.

 

- Vikas

Sounds like user error to me, even if you go indoors camera want warm up instantly but we tend to remove excess clothing; when you tried to push the button outdoors did you have gloves on?

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Sounds like user error to me, even if you go indoors camera want warm up instantly but we tend to remove excess clothing; when you tried to push the button outdoors did you have gloves on?

 

I tried it both with and without gloves!

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try just tapping the buttons and notice how it reacts.

then push the button and see how it reacts

then push the button and hold for a half second and see how it reacts

 

 

once you get the hang of the way it works, it will become second nature.

Its designed to only allow taps to activate the buttons so they aren't inadvertently pushed when grabbing the camera or putting it in your bag.

 

my guess is that in the cold, you were pushing the buttons too long. 

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2 deg C is not cold.  Even if the spec says 0-40, you should be able to use your M without problems in far colder temperatures.  I have used my M240 in -20 deg C.

 
But this should not be luck but a self-evident feature.
When are the specifications for digital Leica cameras finally expanded to significantly lower temperatures?
Nobody living in colder zones would buy a car whose electronics fail below zero degrees Celsius.
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As to operating temperature - 0°C is just Leica covering their butt (not a criticism). I've used my M9s - with the same official limitation - at least down to 0°F/-17°C. Leica just doesn't want complaints IF something should fail below 0°C.

 

It IS possible that LCD screens (on the back of the M10, or in the Viso EVF) can get slow to respond in extreme cold (they are, after all, Liquid-Crystal Displays - and the "liquid" can get a bit like the proverbial "molasses in January" if too cold). And/or turn all black - usually temporarily - if they get really hot. Since the M10 has live-view, that may be more of a noticeable issue than with the M9 (who cares if the menus are a bit sluggish?).

 

As to cosmic rays - you have to remember that at that scale, everything we think of as solid (airplane metal, camera metal, our bodies) is well over 99% empty space. It is only the interatomic bonds that make things "feel" solid, and will trap or reflect massless photons of light, making things appear opaque and "light-tight". A relatively massy cosmic ray (a free neutron or proton, not a photon, with 10s of Joules of kinetic energy) will blast right through those force-fields and that empty space like a bullet through tissue paper - no, make that, little bits of tissue paper spaced 50 cms/20 inches apart.

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...

Its designed to only allow taps to activate the buttons so they aren't inadvertently pushed when grabbing the camera or putting it in your bag.

 

my guess is that in the cold, you were pushing the buttons too long. 

 

That's possible, thanks.  I will be in cold whether again on Tuesday so I'll give it a try!

 

- Vikas

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As to operating temperature - 0°C is just Leica covering their butt (not a criticism). I've used my M9s - with the same official limitation - at least down to 0°F/-17°C. Leica just doesn't want complaints IF something should fail below 0°C.

 

It IS possible that LCD screens (on the back of the M10, or in the Viso EVF) can get slow to respond in extreme cold (they are, after all, Liquid-Crystal Displays - and the "liquid" can get a bit like the proverbial "molasses in January" if too cold). And/or turn all black - usually temporarily - if they get really hot. Since the M10 has live-view, that may be more of a noticeable issue than with the M9 (who cares if the menus are a bit sluggish?).

 

As to cosmic rays - you have to remember that at that scale, everything we think of as solid (airplane metal, camera metal, our bodies) is well over 99% empty space. It is only the interatomic bonds that make things "feel" solid, and will trap or reflect massless photons of light, making things appear opaque and "light-tight". A relatively massy cosmic ray (a free neutron or proton, not a photon, with 10s of Joules of kinetic energy) will blast right through those force-fields and that empty space like a bullet through tissue paper - no, make that, little bits of tissue paper spaced 50 cms/20 inches apart.

When I posted the original query I had no idea the answers would be so fascinating :-)

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interatomic bonds[/u] that make things "feel" solid, and will trap or reflect massless photons of light, making things appear opaque and "light-tight". A relatively massy cosmic ray (a free neutron or proton, not a photon, with 10s of Joules of kinetic energy) will blast right through those force-fields and that empty space like a bullet through tissue paper - no, make that, little bits of tissue paper spaced 50 cms/20 inches apart.

This is why forums are great

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  This is yesterday in northern Spain mountains. Temperature well under 0 C, snowstorm and both the M10 and MM1 performed perfectly.

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