M10? - Sorry, no!

[mhicks]

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You're right, I did misunderstand. I was thinking product features and capabilities, not service.

Admittedly I have not had the pleasure of dealing with that side of their business.

 

As for patience, I'm thinking features and capabilities again.

If the M10 doesn't have your favorite feature for what you want to use it for, be patient.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

The announcement of the Hasselblad X1D had me palpitating with excitement but It transpired it was missing a raft of features that were essential for my work.

 

The announcement of the Leica M10, whilst not causing me to have palpitations, did pique my interest but it transpired that it was missing an important feature that is essential for my work.

 

I will not be buying the X1D as it will never have all the missing features. I may buy the M10 at some point in the future if the missing feature is added.

 

Either way I will for the moment carry on as I am regardless.

Edited July 21, 2017 by keithlaban.co.uk

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[Guest]

Still going strong...

http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-A

 

Depends on your definition of "strong." As for me, I bought a 56 year-old M3 last December. And in March I replaced my M9-P and MM with an M10. Luckily, I have no interest in video, although a USB port would have been somewhat useful — I used it on my M9 when digitalizing negatives using the BEOON stand.

 

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[Guest]

...Support and communication is, in my experience, a fair way behind the standards of the industry, and what I think we should expect from a producer of high quality products...

 

My experience with customer service in Leica-NJ a couple of years ago was dismal, though it was good back in 1990. My recent experience with Wetzlar customer service have been very good.

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[Steve Spencer]

I'm not going to rehash that whole discussion after a zillion posts on the subject. I'll just point out that the great 1930-ies Leica ambassador Dr. Paul Wolff, who promoted "the Leica" as a travel camera found moving images so essential for his specialty, that he is said to have presented movie stills as being made with a Leica. So to me, it came as no surprise that Leica incorporated Video in the M as soon as it was technically possible.

 

It saddens the traditionalist in me, that the historical main function of the M, travel and reportage, is no longer regarded as part of its scope by present-day owners. Instead, it is perceived as a tool for street photography and around the house, nothing more .Only some eccentrics like me want to use it to the full extent of its ability.

I do fear, BTW, that street photography will be lopped off as well with the advent of high-quality mirrorless compact and light cameras, leaving the M in an ever-shrinking niche.

 

I guess I'm just an old Luddite at heart...

 

Today is my staff-day out. They have chosen the Zoo (?) and dinner What camera will I be taking? I wouldn't even have asked myself that question in the past. Today the M will remain in the safe, I will have a Panasonic; I'll probably slip the X2 in my pocket for old times sake.

 

For me, and I don't think I am unusual in this respect, travel photography is a huge reason I ordered the Leica M10. I think it is a fantastic travel camera. I am very sympathetic to your argument that losing video was hard for your personal use of the camera, but I disagree with your view that losing (implied here) that losing video has a big affect on its use as a travel camera. I do appreciate that it might affect the way you do travel photography, but I think many many people will not find the loss of video to affect their travel photography at all. I know I won't and I still think it is a phenomenal travel camera. So, I disagree that the historical main function of travel is affected much if really at all by the loss of video. I think a similar argument can be made about news reportage as well, so I think the M10 is fantastic at its historical main functions, so I can't help but see your sadness and quite misplaced. I don't dispute that video affected your use of the camera for travel and reportage, but I just don't think it affects the general usage of the camera for these functions as you suggest  it does. I think a huge percentage of users will still use the camera for travel and it will still be used extensively for news reportage (although this market is shrinking). I think you may have even missed that the camera because of some of its improvements (better EVF and better high ISO) will be even more valued as a travel camera by many. It may even pick up some new users for travel. I represent some of the people who are now using an M camera for travel when they did not in the past.

[SrMi]

I am also of the opinion that the video does not belong in a Leica M, at least until it does provide a LOG profile with low compression and sensor image stabilization. Until then, I am better off shooting video with iPhone. The problem is that, similar to TL2's flash removal, Leica removed something that existed before, therefore hurting some users. Leica claims, and it matches my experience, neither video nor built-in flash is something that is used a lot, therefore not essential to the products. I think Leica is moving in the right direction by simplifying its cameras.

[jaapv]

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Still, I think I have a right to speak up. Over the years I purchased 12 Leica cameras new. (M4-P,M6,M6TTL,M8,M8,M9,MM1,M240,R4.R5,R7,DL2,X2). Sorry, I miscounted, 13.

 

Surely It should be of some concern to Leica to lose such a customer for future purchases.

As it is I see my beloved M system being overtaken by more suitable cameras for lack of versatility. They should have improved the features, not left them off.

[mhicks]

Still, I think I have a right to speak up. Over the years I purchased 12 Leica cameras new. (M4-P,M6,M6TTL,M8,M8,M9,MM1,M240,R4.R5,R7,DL2,X2). Sorry, I miscounted, 13.

 

Surely It should be of some concern to Leica to lose such a customer for future purchases.

As it is I see my beloved M system being overtaken by more suitable cameras for lack of versatility. They should have improved the features, not left them off.

Your opinion is widely respected here, including by me!

 

Other than video, what other features is the M10 missing that, had Leica included them, you would have been inclined to purchase the camera?

[jaapv]

Specifically lighter weight, IBIS, really up-to-date EVF, better battery life. single electronic framelines. Or at least a number of these.

[mhicks]

Specifically lighter weight, IBIS, really up-to-date EVF, better battery life. single electronic framelines. Or at least a number of these.

Not being a camera expert, what tradeoffs do you think were made here?

IBIS vs Weight?

Better battery life vs up-to-date EVF vs weight?

 

Other than IBIS, I could see how the other things are based on what you wish to optimize (i.e., one comes at the expense of the other).

 

Also, I don't know the first thing about IBIS, but I imagine that it must include some form of accelerometer or gyroscope. What, in your opinion, would that come at the expense of?

 

In other words, these features are not new to market so it's not as if they are not known to the engineers there.

Therefore, they come at the expense of something that IS included OR they come at the expense of what Leica believes an M should be.

 

Thoughts?

[pico]

[...] does anybody believe that there will be replacement "Maestro II" chips in 50 years time? Not that it will be a problem of mine (cf. Keynes, again...).

Does anyone believe they can even imagine fifty years from today?

[lct]

Why would any upgrade exclude anything from any camera? And why on earth would rangefinders be the only cameras to keep stuck in the past? Incredible that old blokes like me are complaining about Leica's inability or unwillingness to modernize its rangefinders...  

[mhicks]

Why would any upgrade exclude anything from any camera? And why on earth would rangefinders be the only cameras to keep stuck in the past?

See my previous post re: tradeoffs in features vs tradeoffs in product development direction (i.e., what they believe an M should be).

Unless we talk to their head of product development the answers here are purely speculative. It's fun to speculate though

[Steve Spencer]

Specifically lighter weight, IBIS, really up-to-date EVF, better battery life. single electronic framelines. Or at least a number of these.

 

Yes, but none of these things were features of the M240 that were dropped in the M10. Surely the camera could have had even more features, but not having these features does not make it less of a travel and reportage camera than it always has been. It is still great for these purposes. 

[erl]

M6's and M7's were, and still are great travel cameras. They were/are also  still great work cameras , dependent on the type of work. For me, they can't be bettered, but have been improved on by M9, and M10. (I didn't have M240.)

 

Those cameras were/are phenomenal work horses in many different environments, not able to be matched by any other genre/brand for the demands I placed on them. They have always lacked some features of other work tools, just like a hammer does not make a good screw driver. But I am a craftsman and I choose my tools accordingly and to complement each other. That is why, currently I own and use a Sony A7S and a GoPro, alongside my many Leicas. So often neglected in the type of argument in threads like this one, are the overall ergonomics, aesthetics of the camera (yes that is an influencing factor) and how that camera fits into the work environment. Not everyone will have experienced that, so trust me, I know!

 

The M10, for me is a nice step forward, I am pleased with the improvements and the exclusions. Simply put, for me it is an ideal travel and work camera, with some 'foreign' support. There does not exist a camera that can/will do it all, so get used to it, choose carefully from the available options and keep your dreams for bed time.

[lct]

[...] There does not exist a camera that can/will do it all, so get used to it, choose carefully from the available options and keep your dreams for bed time.

 

Or do like Erl and carry a second or a third camera in your big bag . Been there thanks no thanks.

[erl]

Or do like Erl and carry a second or a third camera in your big bag . Been there thanks no thanks.

Clearly not for you LCT. Understood.

However, My Billingham Alice (I think it is) does/can accommodate three M style bodies and three lenses. However, bag size is not the controlling factor. Assignment/mission/objective is the controlling factor, if you are serious about your photography.

I also have smaller and larger bags. They also get chosen, based on my intended use.

I even go 'naked' , not me, just the camera. ie no bag.

Flexibility is my mantra.

[vladik]

 I would love to have a slimmer M-body.  It confirms that Leica listens to customers having this fixed.  I haven't quite caught up with what Leica calls a 'better sensor'.  But it sounds good.   Better quality of high ISO settings is great.

 

​But still I don't find the improvements worth the cost of up-grading.  Due to:

 

​- Video is a must on today's cameras.  A camera without it belong to the past.  I use video 'a little' when on holiday and as a tourist.  The video and the still camera is then 'in the same box'.  Compact and convenient.  When buying a Leica we always have to prepare ourselves for selling it again.  It's the young people buying 2.hand Leicas today.  They will insist on having video included.  No way I am going to buy a camera I will have problems selling to young people of today.

 

​- Battery capacity is marginal on the M(240) and really 'bad' compared to competition.  Reducing it is going to create problems.  This must be solved!  What about having a big battery as an 'block add-on' at the bottom of the camera?  As the motors were attached on the analogue M's?

 

​- How good is a 'much better sensor'?  So good that no software created lens adjustments have to be made?  Can we use other brand lenses, like Zeiss and Voigtländer, without having purple egdes?

 

 

Why so much negativity and vitriol when someone raise their point of view. I like Leica M series, had M9 and M 240 all sold and M10 is on order. Order that most likely I will cancel. I am using Fujifilm X-Pro2 now and I am telling you that I would be quite happy to stay Leica free. Why can’t we have an M XYZ with electronic level and video as well as EVF without that troublesome rangefinder? OK it would not be an M according those M diehard puritans, but so what they can have their M. having said that what Leica should design is a SMALL manual focus SL FF for M lenses. I could buy SL now if I wanted to, but the size is an issue, not interested in SL AF lenses. Wishful thinking Leica as a small manufacturer cannot make enough M10s let alone an additional model.

[euston]

Still, I think I have a right to speak up. Over the years I purchased 12 Leica cameras new. (M4-P,M6,M6TTL,M8,M8,M9,MM1,M240,R4.R5,R7,DL2,X2). Sorry, I miscounted, 13.

 

 

 

Dear Jaap, of course you have. Just beware getting too repetitious on the subject!

 

It’s all too easy to allow one’s disappointment with the specifications or where the M10 fits into product development to colour one’s opinion of its merits as a camera. But this is a camera that reveals its qualities in use. Take an M10 on a trip and put it through its paces for travel and reportage! Who knows? You might change your mind.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Peter H]

Dear Jaap, of course you have. Just beware getting too repetitious on the subject!

 

It’s all too easy to allow one’s disappointment with the specifications or where the M10 fits into product development to colour one’s opinion of its merits as a camera. But this is a camera that reveals its qualities in use. Take an M10 on a trip and put it through its paces for travel and reportage! Who knows? You might change your mind.

Yes, I agree with this.

 

In fact I think Jaap is doing the equivalent thing that the video-sceptics did when they overlooked and missed out on the very real benefits the M240 offered over the M9 as a stills camera because they didn't like one or two of the features that they didn't value.

 

Nevertheless, removing video, as far as I can tell an invisible feature, was I suspect playing to that crowd and though I don't use it I'd welcome it back for the benefit of those who do.