M10? - Sorry, no!

[Olsen]

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These are all requirements for a true video camera. But necessarily required for a still camera with basic video functionality to save movie files on an SD. The CPU, transfer speed etc all meet or exceed that if the video on the M240

 

Implicitly, the M(240) is a pretty unique camera.  Should I sell it...?

[adan]

They may not be of concern to the majority of potential customers but I don't think it's fair to say they are not valid ctiticisms for other people to make.

 

I guess you would consider it a "valid criticism" of the Mazda Miata that it can't tow one of these: http://www.amtrex.net/images/Van/DryVanSample.jpg

 

I'd find that dilutive of the meaning of valid, as in "valid proof" in science, math and philosophy.

 

The Miata wasn't designed to haul large trailers - the M10 isn't designed to shoot video. I can't imagine anyone complaining about the first being taken seriously by either most Miata drivers, or by professional truckers.

 

There will no doubt arrive an M typ 2xx that incorporates the M10 sensor into a camera that can do video - in an M240-sized package, to hold at least some of the items John Black listed. At least a mike, speaker and associated connections (or are we going back to 1928 and silent movies?) Plus holes in the camera to allow the sound in and out (compromises weather-resistance).

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[adan]

Implicitly, the M(240) is a pretty unique camera.  Should I sell it...?

 

If you want to buy something in order to sell it - go to Wall St. or The City. Not a camera store.

[Olsen]

I have had motion capture capability on a couple dozen cameras since 2002. I've never found it to be useful, in fact the motion capture capability of my iPhone is more useful. Perhaps the SL will turn the difference for me, when I find time to do some cinematography. 

 

I never used it with my M-P and don't miss it with the M-D. At all. 

 

 

Absolute rubbish. I last charged my M-P battery two months ago. I've made 700 exposures since, and it's still at 40%. My Sony A7 would barely get 200 exposures out of a full charge, and if I let it sit for a week on the shelf with the power off, the battery was drained empty. 

 

Good luck with the whining. We all know you really want an M10.

 

I also have a Leica M-P (240) which I carried on a cruise around the world - on only one battery, earlier this year.  At several instances the battery lasted for less than a day!  - Sure, I should have brought a spare battery.  They were impossible to get hold of at Papeete, French Polynesia - or Suva, Fiji.  Not even in Sydney Australia!  - But Cathay Photo in Singapore helped me out.  But then 2/3 of the trip was behind me.  So, Leica will be asked to come up with a higher battery capacity fix.  Wait and see.

[tsleica]

^{I think L could stick video in there..no problem..no matter what they say..even if its just HD...and not 4K..}

^{Sony does it quite well..in the small a7s package..}

^{Its just that L can stretch this out a bit..like they usually do..small increments only..make more $$..sellin more cams that way..at 7K per shot..}

^{Not a bad business strategy..for hobby cams..but for the person that needs decent video on the fly for work..(no..not Hollywood cinema stuff..just decent video..)..this just doesn't cut it..esp at that price point of sale..}

^{They would sell more cams w/video in there..definitely..but like I said..its a hobby cam..}

^{I would like one..as I'm a hobbiest too..but I use cams for work as well..and they must serve me more ways than 1..and this means video..}

[Olsen]

I shoot video every day and would absolutely love video functionality in this M...but I've also been shooting M cameras since the M3, and IMO this is the best digital M made. I would rather have a near perfect M, which is what Leica has created in the M10 than having limited video functionality like we had in the M240 forced into it. Leica has never done video right and I found the video in the M240 not worth using. 

 

If you really need video, Leica still makes the M240. If you want a better implemented version, you should look at the SL. The M10 is perfect without video.

 

 

The battery capacity is just fine...there are quite a few reports from actual users. Why are you making assumptions that this is going g to create a problem? There is no problem to solve...Ive been using the camera for 3 weeks now with just one battery and not once have I had a "problem".  A block add on is completely counter to what makes this camera great. There are multiple discussions on the battery, including this:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268449-battery-life/page-3

 

Id suggest you read actual users comments rather than more uninformed speculation.

 

 

 

Do you think its possible to make a full frame camera this compact and have it work perfectly with every lens made? I think your expectations are not realistic. The sensor is better than all the previous M's...if its not good enough for your needs then thats a personal decision, the M10 isn't for everyone. I will say that I don't have any issues with any of my lenses and they all look better than my previous M's- YMMV. There is a thread on this topic if you do a search, complete with images of several lenses comparing the M10, M240 and Sony A7. Please take a little effort to search, all of your concerns have been addressed in this forum:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268488-corner-color-drift-on-m10/

 

Thanks for the link, Digitalfx.  I will most certainly follow it and see how the M10 is performing the wide range of lenses available for the M's. 

[Peter H]

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I guess you would consider it a "valid criticism" of the Mazda Miata that it can't tow one of these: http://www.amtrex.net/images/Van/DryVanSample.jpg

 

I'd find that dilutive of the meaning of valid, as in "valid proof" in science, math and philosophy.

 

The Miata wasn't designed to haul large trailers - the M10 isn't designed to shoot video. I can't imagine anyone complaining about the first being taken seriously by either most Miata drivers, or by professional truckers.

 

There will no doubt arrive an M typ 2xx that incorporates the M10 sensor into a camera that can do video - in an M240-sized package, to hold at least some of the items John Black listed. At least a mike, speaker and associated connections (or are we going back to 1928 and silent movies?) Plus holes in the camera to allow the sound in and out (compromises weather-resistance).

 

 

No, I don't share that view at all.

 

The M240 had features that the M10 doesn't, and it is perfectly reasonable for people who otherwise like the improvements that the M10 offers to express their disappointment at those features it has lost. I really don't agree that it's comparable with people complaining about a car that can't do things it wasn't designed to do.

 

I'm happy with the M10's set of features but it's not axiomatic that the things it was designed to do must be the only things anyone could reasonably have hoped it might do.

[Dirk Mandeville]

One of the problems with adding "basic" video to an M camera is that video users are never satisfied with basic video. They then want higher resolutions, higher frame rates, better audio options, and on and on. I have seen it too many times with other cameras. All the firmware updates are filled with fleshing out the video features, while other needed features get ignored. The software department only has so many resources to go around, and time spent upgrading video features is less time spent on features important to stills shooters.

 

I don't think it's too much to ask that we have one rangefinder camera dedicated to still photography. And I am thrilled that Leica heeded that call from the majority of their customer base. Video shooters have a plethora of other options to satisfy their needs.

[uhoh7]

I would love to have a slimmer M-body.  It confirms that Leica listens to customers having this fixed.  I haven't quite caught up with what Leica calls a 'better sensor'.  But it sounds good.   Better quality of high ISO settings is great.

 

​But still I don't find the improvements worth the cost of up-grading.  Due to:

 

​- Video is a must on today's cameras.  A camera without it belong to the past.  I use video 'a little' when on holiday and as a tourist.  The video and the still camera is then 'in the same box'.  Compact and convenient.  When buying a Leica we always have to prepare ourselves for selling it again.  It's the young people buying 2.hand Leicas today.  They will insist on having video included.  No way I am going to buy a camera I will have problems selling to young people of today.

 

​- Battery capacity is marginal on the M(240) and really 'bad' compared to competition.  Reducing it is going to create problems.  This must be solved!  What about having a big battery as an 'block add-on' at the bottom of the camera?  As the motors were attached on the analogue M's?

 

​- How good is a 'much better sensor'?  So good that no software created lens adjustments have to be made?  Can we use other brand lenses, like Zeiss and Voigtländer, without having purple egdes?

Is video worth another 1500USD to you?

 

That is probably what it would cost to get it working right at 4k in the M10 body, considering the low volume of sales. Of course it's possible. But it's alot harder as there are multiple new issues with video added.

 

I know one thing, it's not worth another 100USD to most of the buyers.

[digitalfx]

this says a lot about the need for video.

 

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[Steve Spencer]

But competition manages it!  You and me might regard 'video as unnecessary'.  But not the next generation photographers.  - I have a Canon 1Ds III that is impossible to sell.  Buyers, mostly youngsters, want video too.

 

Which competition? Leica manages it to with the SL, but which competition has an optical rangefinder and movie capability? Leica has a strategy in which they do not ignore video, but provide it at a high level on one camera (the SL) that does take on the competition and don't provide it on another camera (the M10) for which there is no real competition. It is not as though Leica is ignoring video. The SL provides very high level video and if you want video, the SL is a pretty competitive camera to the competition. So if you want to compare a Leica camera to the competition, then you really should be talking about the SL. In my view it makes no sense to talk about how the M10 compares to the competition, because there really isn't any competition.

[Steve Spencer]

^{I think L could stick video in there..no problem..no matter what they say..even if its just HD...and not 4K..}

^{Sony does it quite well..in the small a7s package..}

^{Its just that L can stretch this out a bit..like they usually do..small increments only..make more $$..sellin more cams that way..at 7K per shot..}

^{Not a bad business strategy..for hobby cams..but for the person that needs decent video on the fly for work..(no..not Hollywood cinema stuff..just decent video..)..this just doesn't cut it..esp at that price point of sale..}

^{They would sell more cams w/video in there..definitely..but like I said..its a hobby cam..}

^{I would like one..as I'm a hobbiest too..but I use cams for work as well..and they must serve me more ways than 1..and this means video..}

 

Sounds to me like you should be in the market for an SL and not the M10.

[Steve Spencer]

No, I don't share that view at all.

 

The M240 had features that the M10 doesn't, and it is perfectly reasonable for people who otherwise like the improvements that the M10 offers to express their disappointment at those features it has lost. I really don't agree that it's comparable with people complaining about a car that can't do things it wasn't designed to do.

 

I'm happy with the M10's set of features but it's not axiomatic that the things it was designed to do must be the only things anyone could reasonably have hoped it might do.

Peter I mostly agree, but what has happened, in my view since the M240 is that Leica has split the functions of that camera into two cameras that are evolving in different ways. The SL is the competitor with other mirrorless cameras and even DSLRs. It does video very well. It can use M lenses, but works very well with R lenses. So, it performs some of the stuff that the m240 tried to do but didn't do well -- like video and working with R lenses--very well. I think people who appreciated the M240 for its video capabilities and because it works with R lenses should naturally gravitate to the SL. Leica has also produced, however, the M10. This is a camera that focusses on doing the rangefinder experience well. The M240 was pretty good at that, but I think it is clear that the M10 does rangefinder shooting better. I think there is a good argument to be made the Leica tried to do too much with the M240--satisfy former R lens shooters with a platform, offer video, and still provide a high level rangefinder shooting experience. In my view it was smart to separate all these functions into two cameras that each do their respective things much better rather than one camera that was compromised for many of those functions. So, I like what Leica did in separating what the M240 did into two cameras that each do parts of what the M240 did better.

[Peter H]

this says a lot about the need for video.

It says something, certainly, but a poll in a thread about the M10 on a Leica forum is inevitably going to be weighted towards people who like it. And added to that self-selecting nature of that group the question, as someone has already pointed out, only allows for those who's reason for not buying is solely the lack of video. It doesn't ask who would like video.

 

I don't think this means that many more people wanted video, but neither is it likely to be as clear-cut as that poll suggests.

 

The point is, however, that some people would like video so let's hope Leica find a way of keeping them happy without forcing them to buy a different camera.

[Dirk Mandeville]

The point is, however, that some people would like video so let's hope Leica find a way of keeping them happy without forcing them to buy a different camera.

Obviously, if they want video, then they will have to buy a different camera. I think Leica has made clear that they created the SL for these people. If they really want video, then they probably aren't going to want an M. Leica's vision for the M is that of a purist rangefinder stills camera. I'm pretty sure the majority of the M user base agrees with that decision. For the rest, there is the SL.

[digitalfx]

It says something, certainly, but a poll in a thread about the M10 on a Leica forum is inevitably going to be weighted towards people who like it. And added to that self-selecting nature of that group the question, as someone has already pointed out, only allows for those who's reason for not buying is solely the lack of video. It doesn't ask who would like video.

 

I don't think this means that many more people wanted video, but neither is it likely to be as clear-cut as that poll suggests.

 

The point is, however, that some people would like video so let's hope Leica find a way of keeping them happy without forcing them to buy a different camera.

 

 

 

well I agree its not going to be perfect...but really is it that far off? Its an M camera, the audience is pretty small too begin with and this is the place to take the poll. Would you rather a poll of people who would never buy the camera to begin with? I think a poll taken outside of this forum would have far less value. Honestly I was surprised that the number was so low.

[pico]

If I were a major city daily news photographer I would probably carry a Leica or two, but for comprehensive coverage where video was expected 'just in case', I would have a digital Nikon or Canon. Leica lenses are complete over-kill for video today (Today: see time-stamp above.)  Do the physics/math regarding digital video.

 

As a a retired olde pharte, I would still not put video capture as a necessity  for a Leica M.

 

Go figure.

Edited February 10, 2017 by pico

[patashnik]

 When buying a Leica we always have to prepare ourselves for selling it again.  It's the young people buying 2.hand Leicas today.  They will insist on having video included.  No way I am going to buy a camera I will have problems selling to young people of today.

For the sake of argument: Prove it. You seem to have the finger on the pulse of the youth. 

[ShaunD]

If you look at the other threads on this forum discussing availability, the size of the waiting lists and demand that already exists I think this says a lot about how right Leica have got the M10 including the issue of video.

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Look here: Leica M

[ShaunD]

For the sake of argument: Prove it. You seem to have the finger on the pulse of the youth. 

 

Interesting debate on the younger photographer, my oldest son is 24 and has just purchased a Leicaflex 35mm film camera he wants to experience the manual basic art of photography and he tells me he has many young friends doing the same.....no problem with video there they have iPhones.

Edited February 10, 2017 by ShaunD