New to Macro Question

[roverover]

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I am new to and interested in exploring Macro photography using M240 and M-Macro Ring or Oufro adapters.

My questions are regarding DOF.

How does the addition of a macro setup generally alter DOF, does extending the lens from the body diminish the normal DOF parameters for a given lens without a Macro ring,

and would the DOF of a Wide angle vs. Tele lens be more or less affected by the macro setup?

 

If anyone experienced can comment i'd appreciate hearing about it?

 

 

 

[mmx_2]

Adding an OUFRO will shorten the DOF significantly. The wides will of course give you more DOF but focus distance will also be shorter (you need to get really close). A tele lens will give you a razor thin DOF but a longer working distance. For flowers I usually use OUFRO and Elmar 24, that works very nice and gives enough DOF. Bear in mind that the OUFRO will give you a very short focus distance. Best way to focus is just by moving the camera back and forth with live view and focus peaking. For critical focus a tripod and magnification are nice additions. Best way is simply to play:)! Good luck!!

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[waloszek]

I did some experiments with different M-mount lenses and their close-up performance at the M240. However, I just looked at magnification and minimum object width/size, not at DOF (which is indeed very low). 

If you are interested anyway, possible "entry page" to this might be: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_mm_closeup_e.php

 

This is the start page of a more general discussion: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_closeup_e.php

 

As mmx_2 wrote, OUFRO + Elmar 24 is a good combination (see also here: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_lea24_e.php#close_op )

 

Best regards, Gerd

 

P.S.: It took me some effort to make the links work...

Edited February 7, 2017 by waloszek

[nwphil]

I have the leica apo Elmarit 100mm 2.8 R6, along with the elpro 2:1 and the leica R to M converter.

with live view or the EVF you will get pretty close.

Read somewhere about some conversion with a reversible ring and also with macro-bellows, and for what I recall seems that either provided good results too.

[roverover]

Adding an OUFRO will shorten the DOF significantly. The wides will of course give you more DOF but focus distance will also be shorter (you need to get really close). A tele lens will give you a razor thin DOF but a longer working distance. For flowers I usually use OUFRO and Elmar 24, that works very nice and gives enough DOF. Bear in mind that the OUFRO will give you a very short focus distance. Best way to focus is just by moving the camera back and forth with live view and focus peaking. For critical focus a tripod and magnification are nice additions. Best way is simply to play:)! Good luck!!

Thank You for the reply, this is the info i was hoping to hear about. I appreciate this knowledge. I am going to have to start to experiment as you stated. Thanks so much!

[roverover]

I did some experiments with different M-mount lenses and their close-up performance at the M240. However, I just looked at magnification and minimum object width/size, not at DOF (which is indeed very low). 

If you are interested anyway, possible "entry page" to this might be: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_mm_closeup_e.php

 

This is the start page of a more general discussion: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_closeup_e.php

 

As mmx_2 wrote, OUFRO + Elmar 24 is a good combination (see also here: http://www.waloszek.de/m240_lea24_e.php#close_op )

 

Best regards, Gerd

 

P.S.: It took me some effort to make the links work...

Excellent info - thank you Gerd - I have actually been to those sites and have been doing some research and reading there, so thank you for creating them and responding with the links too, they are Very helpful.

[luigi bertolotti]

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The DOF (in absolute value, to say centimeters front and back of focus plane) of course decreases while decreasing focus distance, which is the function of extenders like OUFRO. If you achieve the same magnification of the subject with a lens of different focal length, the theorical DOF remains around the same... but you anyway can observe modifications in the global "feel"... I made several experiments about using 35/50/90/135 and getting the same magnification...

[bencoyote]

When I bought the macro adapter I did some test shots which may help to understand.

https://goo.gl/photos/mmNxkpHPLf6ag3mk6

 

You may need to read the comments to understand each image. The general setup was a cutting mat because it had a scale and then I focused on one of the lines and then iterated through the various apertures., the lengths of the macro adapter, and the focal lengths for the lenses that I had at the time. If there is any value in these shots to you, the value may be in sparking your thought process about how you can setup your camera, the macro adapter, and the lens to get the shot that you want.

 

I don't mean to be a wet blanket on your experiments but my macro adapter was stolen along with my camera bag a few months ago. I might not replace it. What I personally kind of decided was that macro on the M was very very hard and for the kinds of things that i want to do macro on, and I might not have the time and patience. I'm kind of saving up for the APO-Macro-Elmarit for the Leica T. The smaller sensor gives you a bit more DOF as does the lens's f/32 when you can get away with using it. However, the biggest advantage that you get with the T over the M is AF-C. Focusing on your point isn't too terribly hard, I also arrived at the system of using live view and moving the camera until my subject was in focus. Continuous AF really helps when you are dealing with the tiny DOF where millimeters matter, the swaying of a branch or a stalk of a flower or even the subtle motion of your hand and body can ruin a shot.

[roverover]

The DOF (in absolute value, to say centimeters front and back of focus plane) of course decreases while decreasing focus distance, which is the function of extenders like OUFRO. If you achieve the same magnification of the subject with a lens of different focal length, the theorical DOF remains around the same... but you anyway can observe modifications in the global "feel"... I made several experiments about using 35/50/90/135 and getting the same magnification...

Thanks for all of the responses. I appreciate hearing and learning more about it. This is more good information.

[roverover]

When I bought the macro adapter I did some test shots which may help to understand.

https://goo.gl/photos/mmNxkpHPLf6ag3mk6

 

You may need to read the comments to understand each image. The general setup was a cutting mat because it had a scale and then I focused on one of the lines and then iterated through the various apertures., the lengths of the macro adapter, and the focal lengths for the lenses that I had at the time. If there is any value in these shots to you, the value may be in sparking your thought process about how you can setup your camera, the macro adapter, and the lens to get the shot that you want.

 

I don't mean to be a wet blanket on your experiments but my macro adapter was stolen along with my camera bag a few months ago. I might not replace it. What I personally kind of decided was that macro on the M was very very hard and for the kinds of things that i want to do macro on, and I might not have the time and patience. I'm kind of saving up for the APO-Macro-Elmarit for the Leica T. The smaller sensor gives you a bit more DOF as does the lens's f/32 when you can get away with using it. However, the biggest advantage that you get with the T over the M is AF-C. Focusing on your point isn't too terribly hard, I also arrived at the system of using live view and moving the camera until my subject was in focus. Continuous AF really helps when you are dealing with the tiny DOF where millimeters matter, the swaying of a branch or a stalk of a flower or even the subtle motion of your hand and body can ruin a shot.

Thanks for the notes. I see your photos and did take notice of the specs for each photo when i clicked on them. Those are interesting experiments and shed more light on the topic. I have that same cutting mat and i like what you were going for with those test photos. I understand what you are saying about working with Macro on an M, it is a bit clumsy, but since i also already own an M and several M lenses, i will be testing with the gear i have. I also have a New TL on order, so once it arrives i can experiment with Continuous AF too, although i am actually enjoying the Manual focus with Tripod with my early Macro attempts, but more information is helpful, thank you.

[luigi bertolotti]

Just to chat on theory/math about Macro/focal/DOF etc... there is a basic concept that in my opinion is Worth to have well in mind when one starts to use extenders / bellows and similar :

 

- The EFFECTIVE FOCAL LENGTH YOU WORK WITH IS NOT THE (nominal) FOCAL LENGTH OF THE LENS YOU ARE USING -

 

The focal legth of a photo lens is the distance from its "center" (rear nodal point) to the focus plane (film/sensor) WHEN FOCUSED AT INFINITY. So, when you focus an object that is NOT AT ALL at infinity (and this of course is the case with Macro) , you are working with a focal length that is not the "nominal" focal length of the lens, because the distance from nodal point to focus plane, thanks to extender/bellows is much HIGHER than the distance when focus at infinity.

 

As an example in the Leica world : Leitz made a set of Macro (better to say, Micro) lenses for Leicaflex that had the name Photar : one of them was a 25mm lens... but it simply was NOT made to be used at infinity (by sure it didn't cover 24x36 format at infinity) : it was used for strong magnification ratios (Micro) at effective focal lengths much higher than 25mm.

[pop]

- The EFFECTIVE FOCAL LENGTH YOU WORK WITH IS NOT THE (nominal) FOCAL LENGTH OF THE LENS YOU ARE USING -....

There is a problem with the terminology in this statement.

 

The focal length of a lens remains unchanged, no matter the distance of your subject. What changes is the distance between the lens and the image. Varying this distance will affect the relative aperture of the lens and the angle of view.

 

I think this article in the Wikipedia gives a useful summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(optics)

[mmx_2]

For professional macro work there are of course many "better" options, but for convienience and "quick and dirty" macro shots an OUFRO ring is very, very good. I always have one in my pocket and wether I have a 24,28,35 or 50 mounted on my camera I know I can do a close up that will be "good enough".

[ramarren]

If you are just getting interested in macro photography, I would recommend picking up John Shaw's book Closeups In Nature. It treats the subject from the point of view of macro photography, not brand specific equipment.

 

Fundamental principles of DoF, magnification, lens extension, etc, are the same for Leica M as they are for any camera. An M240 with the EVF and an appropriate lens, camera stand, and remote release are as useful as any other. This example of a clover flower:

 

 

was made with an M-P 240 fitted with Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 AI-S. The clover flower was 3.5mm across the petals.

[luigi bertolotti]

There is a problem with the terminology in this statement.

 

The focal length of a lens remains unchanged, no matter the distance of your subject. What changes is the distance between the lens and the image. Varying this distance will affect the relative aperture of the lens and the angle of view.

 

I think this article in the Wikipedia gives a useful summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(optics)

OK, I agree... my statement is a bit on the paradox side.... of course if you work with an Elmar 90... well, IS a 90mm lens , period... but if you use its lenshead on a bellows and extend, you are working with an optical system which does not have a focal length of 90 millimeters... this is what I meant.

Edited February 9, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[pop]

OK, I agree... my statement is a bit on the paradox side.... of course if you work with an Elmar 90... well, IS a 90mm lens , period... but if you use its lenshead on a bellows and extend, you are working with an optical system which does not have a focal length of 90 millimeters... this is what I meant.

But it does have a focal length of 90mm, notwithstanding any length of extension you use. The focal length is a precisely defined term. It's the distance from the optical plane of the lens where a set of parallel light rays meet, having passed through the lens, and it never changes for a given lens unless you add elements such as a close-up lens.

 

I don't know the English term for the distance you refer to; in German it's called the "Bildweite" and denotes the distance from the lens where the image forms for an object which is at a particular distance in front of the lens.

[ramarren]

OK, I agree... my statement is a bit on the paradox side.... of course if you work with an Elmar 90... well, IS a 90mm lens , period... but if you use its lenshead on a bellows and extend, you are working with an optical system which does not have a focal length of 90 millimeters... this is what I meant.

 

 

No. The focal length never changes. 

 

If you put a 90mm lens head on a bellows and rack out the extension to enable a 1:1 magnification, lens is still a 90mm focal length: all that has happened is that you've extended the distance between lens and image plane to focus it at a very close distance. In fact, the only time a 90mm lens will ever be set to exactly 90mm between the lens's primary nodal point and the image plane is when it is focused at infinity. 

[jmahto]

I am new to and interested in exploring Macro photography using M240 and M-Macro Ring or Oufro adapters.

My questions are regarding DOF.

How does the addition of a macro setup generally alter DOF, does extending the lens from the body diminish the normal DOF parameters for a given lens without a Macro ring,

and would the DOF of a Wide angle vs. Tele lens be more or less affected by the macro setup?

 

If anyone experienced can comment i'd appreciate hearing about it?

I have tried to do macro with 135 and 90mm lenses using some extension on M240 with limited success. Unless you are using strobe to light up the subject, the shutterspeed becomes too slow (combined with narrow aperture to salvage limited DOF and low ISO for quality) requiring use of tripod a must. In my experiment I found a cheap mirrorless like Nex-6 better suited for macro work using the same M lens and extension. Mainly due to better LV and first electronic shutter. The image IQ at the base ISO was same.

 

My experience is illustrated in this thread. Instead of OUFRO, I used some other adapters for extension. Described here.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/267995-macro-with-135-tele-elmar/?do=findComment&comment=3179585

 

Edits: typos

Edited February 15, 2017 by jmahto

[Echo63]

I have done a little bit of macro with my M and an extension tube made out of a lens cap and body cap glued together back to back, and bored out.

 

 

DOF is affected by lens focal length, aperture and focus distance.

If everything else remains equal;

Longer focal length lenses have narrower DOF

the more you stop down the deeper the DOF gets

the closer the lens is focused, the narrower the DOF gets.

 

the DOF is typically tiny when shooting macro, even stopped down. Many photographers are doing focus stacking, taking a a bunch of images as the camera is moved in or out to move the plane of focus - then stitching the images in post to expand the DOF.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M