satureyes Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share #41 Posted February 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) The method of production and delivery is acceptable. And here they come.. No - it's NOT acceptable. If customers have placed deposits on cameras there should be a duty to inform the customer with a modicum of accuracy when they can expect their camera. If they are handmade there should be an allocation placed on the camera pre-assembly and this is 'your' camera. They are not mass-produced as we keep being told - therefore every step is traceable. There is no standardisation across the board. The Leica store in London City asked for £2000 deposit. I paid it hoping that it would deter people from adding themselves to the list. However, Leica in Mayfair have 'hundreds' on their list but not asking for a deposit. Some dealers are asking for a refundable 10% but this still doesn't deter people from multi-listing as it's refundable at any point. There are probably several thousand names on multiple lists, and therefore several thousand cameras that wont be accounted for. Don't people see how ridiculous this is? Even putting pre-orders down with dealers for a camera that hadn't been announced? I might ask one to put my name down for the M11 and be on the list for 4 years or whenever. It's madness. Then there's the dealers who will bump people down the list because someone has walked into the store with the cash and the list is irrelevant because people do this. Also this happens EVERY time Leica release something new - whether it be the Q or a lens, there's ALWAYS an issue with supply and demand. Oh - not unless you'e one of the 'inner circle' who will be offered the cameras because they are hipsters. If they tell me my camera (that I've paid almost 50% of) will be 8 weeks, 9 weeks whatever - at least I know and can plan accordingly. At the moment there's countless threads discussing when and where and what may be- but the fact that NO ONE knows is truly sad. I love their cameras and I love the images they help me to make but I think the way they handle product launches is abysmal and they never ever learn. I will not just say 'well that's Leica' and be happy with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Hi satureyes, Take a look here UK delivery updates. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Surelythisnameisfree Posted February 18, 2017 Share #42 Posted February 18, 2017 Well it is the dealers who take the deposits rather than Leica themselves so not sure the act of placing a deposit should mean you get an allocated manufacture date. That said, I do think Leica should produce things faster! They aren't as small a company as some make out (I think they claimed turnover of $365m in 2015/6). Some people who get their names down early for an M10 will end up receiving it not that long before the MP10 etc gets released which is unfortunate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share #43 Posted February 18, 2017 Well it is the dealers who take the deposits rather than Leica themselves so not sure the act of placing a deposit should mean you get an allocated manufacture date. That said, I do think Leica should produce things faster! They aren't as small a company as some make out (I think they claimed turnover of $365m in 2015/6). Some people who get their names down early for an M10 will end up receiving it not that long before the MP10 etc gets released which is unfortunate. I agree- but I am saying that Leica should be able to implement a pre-order sales system. Everyone is online nowadays - it's not that complicated to allocate a build number and unit to a pre-order. They could even take the payment themselves if they wanted to- you could order online and they could ship it to a dealer. Not that difficult. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #44 Posted February 18, 2017 I do think Leica should produce things faster! Do you think they are deliberately making them slower so that people have to wait? They are making them as fast as they can to their standards, and frankly, its this standard that makes the camera so appealing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surelythisnameisfree Posted February 18, 2017 Share #45 Posted February 18, 2017 Of course I don't think they are deliberately making them slower. I think they should expand their production capacity Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted February 18, 2017 Share #46 Posted February 18, 2017 Rick, your assumption is there is a tight linkage between a Leica dealer's allocation of cameras and the factory back in Wetzlar. There's not. There's almost no linkage. The headquarters in Wetzlar makes initial judgments on how many units each major market will get out of each batch. Dealer allocations are then made at arms-length from the factory... typically by regional Leica reps. Delivery to customers is then determined by the dealer. Frankly, the factory has no clue that you are on a waiting list at the Leica Store in London City and that I'm on a waiting list at the Leica store in Washington, DC. It could be done like you suggest. When I put down a deposit on my 2008 Harley Road King, the dealer put my name next to one of his allocated, unbuilt units. Four months later, when that unit got built, I got a nice call from my salesman. Because the factory knew how many units it could produce, and how many units were allocated to each dealer, it was possible to maintain a rather orderly queue - and the customer had a rough idea of when his would come in. But there were/are some major disadvantages with that approach, first and foremost being the fixed allotments that each dealer gets. The first dealer I went to could not sell me a bike in the color I wanted, because he had already sold out his allotment. Ultimately, that tight-linkage approach doesn't solve the real problem... that the demand for the M10 exceeds to capacity of the factory to meet that demand. However you manage it, the cumulative customer wait time remains the same. It is unfortunate that some folks have had to put down deposits. But that's a dealer issue, not something imposed or even suggested by Wetzlar. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #47 Posted February 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Then there's the dealers who will bump people down the list because someone has walked into the store with the cash and the list is irrelevant because people do this. Come on Rick, how is someone with "cash" walking in the store any different to the dealer to the guy that pre-ordered...are you suggesting the guy that pre-ordered cant pay? This is a ridiculous statement...I am not aware of any dealer who is going to forgo his regular customers for someone who walks in with cash. And here they come.. Oh - not unless you'e one of the 'inner circle' who will be offered the cameras because they are hipsters. LOL...so now cash or hipsters, thats all it takes to get a camera from Leica early? WTF is a hipster and why would Leica give them a camera first? You made the choice to pay a deposit...nobody forced you too. Why is this even relevant? Here is the trick I learned after years of waiting: 1- don't get in a line with a large dealer...its the lemmings rule. Everybody and there brother is in this line, and you will wait forever. Find the small dealers, and ask them how many are in line. If they won't tell you then move on. Ive found a few smaller dealers that tell me how many preorders they have, then I can make an educated decision if I want to place the order or not. These same dealers are kind enough to keep me updated on the status of my place in line. I simply avoid the dealer that refuses to do this. Its paid off on all of my digital M's. NOTE: The Leica website has a list of every dealer world wide...use this info to your advantage. 2- Order before the announcement...yes its seems silly to order something that doesn't exist. But within 15 minutes of the announcement is too late to get an early camera. If this doesn't work for you and you refuse to order something you have no information on, then you will need to wait in line. But if you follow #1 above, the line will be much shorter. 3- The other trick is to just not pre-order at all. And every few weeks, start calling each of those small dealers and ask if they have one in stock. You will be surprised how well this works. Bottom line is that you chose to pay a deposit, and you chose to get in a line with a dealer that doesn't inform his customers...those were your choices, so now you have to live with that decision and have patience. BTW- I have never paid a deposit and its never been a disadvantage to me getting a camera. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Leica Posted February 18, 2017 Share #48 Posted February 18, 2017 Don't people see how ridiculous this is? Even putting pre-orders down with dealers for a camera that hadn't been announced? I did it and got mine one day after M10 was announced - so why not? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share #49 Posted February 18, 2017 Rick, your assumption is there is a tight linkage between a Leica dealer's allocation of cameras and the factory back in Wetzlar. There's not. There's almost no linkage. The headquarters in Wetzlar makes initial judgments on how many units each major market will get out of each batch. Dealer allocations are then made at arms-length from the factory... typically by regional Leica reps. Delivery to customers is then determined by the dealer. Frankly, the factory has no clue that you are on a waiting list at the Leica Store in London City and that I'm on a waiting list at the Leica store in Washington, DC. It could be done like you suggest. When I put down a deposit on my 2008 Harley Road King, the dealer put my name next to one of his allocated, unbuilt units. Four months later, when that unit got built, I got a nice call from my salesman. Because the factory knew how many units it could produce, and how many units were allocated to each dealer, it was possible to maintain a rather orderly queue - and the customer had a rough idea of when his would come in. But there were/are some major disadvantages with that approach, first and foremost being the fixed allotments that each dealer gets. The first dealer I went to could not sell me a bike in the color I wanted, because he had already sold out his allotment. Ultimately, that tight-linkage approach doesn't solve the real problem... that the demand for the M10 exceeds to capacity of the factory to meet that demand. However you manage it, the cumulative customer wait time remains the same. It is unfortunate that some folks have had to put down deposits. But that's a dealer issue, not something imposed or even suggested by Wetzlar. I understand - but I think that in 2017 it cannot be too difficult to ask dealers to add the pre-order details to a centralised service - even a simple online form, so that the builds can be allocated. If some dealer are asking for deposits then I think those dealers have a duty to update and inform the customers on deliveries/list movements. Especially when those dealers are the main Leica stores in each country. I don't believe in making excused for Leica all the time for whatever reason it is. They are not a small company any more as someone just said earlier. This is not a mass produced product. All the serial numbers are noted and throughout the production process and are noted when each sale is made. it's not like they are not traceable through the production process. As I keep saying - it's the same crap every time there's a new release. Why not stockpile a load of cameras pre-launch. If they are not taking deposits or logging the pre-orders officially then they are still making cameras blind, the demand is only paper-talk and not confirmed. The only demand they can use as a yardstick is confirmed (paid) orders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share #50 Posted February 18, 2017 LOL...so now cash or hipsters, thats all it takes to get a camera from Leica early? WTF is a hipster and why would Leica give them a camera first? You made the choice to pay a deposit...nobody forced you too. Why is this even relevant? The 'hipsters' are the Leica lovies who are the ones Leica perceive as being right for their brand. I've seen some absolutely crud images posted by people from their 'inner circle'- terrible street photos from around London and other such nonsense. They have their favourites. Leica gets the inner circle their cameras on the release day to they can milk the PR. I know for a FACT that dealers who say they don't have stock have supplied people I know with a camera when they have walked into the store. I know a few faces of dealers clearly bumping people down whatever list they are on when someone walks in ready to buy. My deposit is with a main Leica dealer - not an indy. I paid the deposit because I thought it would assure me a place on a smaller list, which it has but I am saying that I would be more than happy to pay for the camera outright if I knew I'd be allocated a model in a more fair system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #51 Posted February 18, 2017 I did it and got mine one day after M10 was announced - so why not? ditto...it may seem silly, but I knew I was going to buy the new M regardless. I placed my order in Jan 2016, long before we knew anything at all about the M...the dealer thought I was crazy and didn't even have a list. They created the list for me. My camera shipped same day as announcement, and I'm not even a hipster. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #52 Posted February 18, 2017 The 'hipsters' are the Leica lovies who are the ones Leica perceive as being right for their brand. I've seen some absolutely crud images posted by people from their 'inner circle'- terrible street photos from around London and other such nonsense. They have their favourites. Leica gets the inner circle their cameras on the release day to they can milk the PR. I know for a FACT that dealers who say they don't have stock have supplied people I know with a camera when they have walked into the store. I know a few faces of dealers clearly bumping people down whatever list they are on when someone walks in ready to buy. My deposit is with a main Leica dealer - not an indy. I paid the deposit because I thought it would assure me a place on a smaller list, which it has but I am saying that I would be more than happy to pay for the camera outright if I knew I'd be allocated a model in a more fair system. well Rick, thats just going to happen. Its not unique to Leica, so why does it matter? I Cant imagine it happens in enough numbers to really matter in the scheme of things. Do a handful of "hipsters" really impact how long it takes for us to get our cameras? I think part of the issue is that the M10 received so many positive reviews immediately after it was released. Combined with the fact that Leica really listened to what we wanted and delivered one of the best M's yet, this has created a large number of orders...not sure if we will ever know the true numbers, but I would guess that the M10 is going to outsell all the previous digital M's...so its a supply and demand issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share #53 Posted February 18, 2017 well Rick, thats just going to happen. Its not unique to Leica, so why does it matter? I Cant imagine it happens in enough numbers to really matter in the scheme of things. Do a handful of "hipsters" really impact how long it takes for us to get our cameras? I think part of the issue is that the M10 is that it received so many positive reviews, combined with the fact that Leica really listened to what we wanted and delivered one of the best M's yet. This has created a large number of orders...not sure if we will ever know the true numbers, but I would guess that the M10 is going to outsell all the previous digital M's...so its a supply and demand issue. Same story since the M9 - Leica never realise how popular etc etc.. I get it we're all fanboys but I do think their product release system is rubbish. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
}{B Posted February 18, 2017 Share #54 Posted February 18, 2017 When I ordered mine I asked about the delivery procedure. I asked if it was the case that a box of M10s would arrive from Leica and then would be allocated by the dealer. I was told no, each camera is made to order individually and by that I assumed that they would arrive in batches already allocated by Leica to individual customers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #55 Posted February 18, 2017 When I ordered mine I asked about the delivery procedure. I asked if it was the case that a box of M10s would arrive from Leica and then would be allocated by the dealer. I was told no, each camera is made to order individually and by that I assumed that they would arrive in batches already allocated by Leica to individual customers. this is not true. That only happens when you custom order via a la carte system, otherwise the dealer is responsible to allocate the shipments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrp Posted February 18, 2017 Share #56 Posted February 18, 2017 Why would a dealer not sell to someone that comes in off the street in preference to someone that has already put down a deposit and is not going to know it happened? 2 sales, rather than just 1. They have to eat too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surelythisnameisfree Posted February 18, 2017 Share #57 Posted February 18, 2017 ^ I would imagine if a dealer operated like that and any of his customers got wind of it, he'd lose any repeat business Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 18, 2017 Share #58 Posted February 18, 2017 Why would a dealer not sell to someone that comes in off the street in preference to someone that has already put down a deposit and is not going to know it happened? 2 sales, rather than just 1. They have to eat too. Your kidding right? Because it's unethical for one. And a crappy way to treat your customers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted February 18, 2017 Share #59 Posted February 18, 2017 Right in both accounts. Unfortunately your confidence in salesmen is not always justified Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 18, 2017 Share #60 Posted February 18, 2017 Right in both accounts. Unfortunately your confidence in salesmen is not always justified That's the benefit of dealing with people you know and trust instead of spraying orders around to try to beat the queue. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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