M2 vs M4-2 Reliability

[anindyo]

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I am thinking of getting a film Leica, and my budget limits the choice to M2 or M4-2. I ruled out M3 DS because I wear glasses and it's rather inconvenient for framing with M3 viewfinder. I understand the differences in feature between the two and find it doesn't matter much. I like M2, but I heard about the risk of viewfinder separation that can be expensive to repair, while M4-2 is also rumored to be not the best in terms of built quality. I am even thinking of getting Nikon FM2 or Bessa R2 for more affordable compact mechanical camera, but seems I will always want a Leica after using M8 for two years. 

 

So, assuming that M2 and M4-2 in a comparable condition, which one do you think is more reliable, easy maintenance, and relatively trouble-free?

 

Any suggestion and shared experience is greatly appreciated.  

 

 

[Tom R]

Well, I've owned and used M-2s and M4-Ps (similar to M4-2, made in Canada, etc) for a long time (since the early nineties ...?). Honestly, I never had any problems with either of these camera bodies, and I've used them in a variety of tough conditions ...  bad weather, rowdy rallies, etc.

 

The film loading mechanism on the M4-* series is "quick loading," and the sync plugs on the rear of the camera bodies accommodates most flash units. The M4-* bodies do NOT have self-timers, but I never used the self timers anyway. I am certainly no expert on these matters, but I believe that the internal mechanism for the M4-* bodies is stainless whereas the M2 might be brass, or some such thing, which is apparently "smoother." I believe that the M4-* bodies also accommodate winders, but most people who use these cameras may not have access to winders anyway.

 

The M2 finder is clearer if you're using only 35mm lenses ... Now that I think of it, I kept a 35mm lens on the M2 for years at a time, removing it when I sometimes needed a 50mm or when I would send to body in for its every 10-year CLA. Now, because I didn't own or use the M4-2, I cannot say if its viewfinder was similar to the M2. I used (and continue to use) M4-Ps because I use 28mm and 35mm more than other focal lengths when I shoot film.

 

I have heard others claim that the "build quality" is inferior for the Canada-manufacturered M4-* bodies, but, again, I never noticed this ... perhaps I don't know any better.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Tom R

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[Ko.Fe.]

"easy maintenance" ? Are you up to DIY? If so here was service manual for M2 available on-line. I read it once and now way I'll DIM. 

I wouldn't worry about reliability of both. M4-2 is just slightly more convenient, but M2 is classic. Decision should be made on which one you like most. 

[cobbu2]

As far as the history of reliability issues surrounding the M4-2, the first batch made was mostly affected. Having said that, I would think those problems would have by now been discovered and corrected by owners over the course of nearly 40 years of operation in the existing examples.  My M4-2 isn't pretty by any stretch but it works flawlessly.

 

Cheers, Allan

[Fotoklaus]

I own both of them. Never had a single problem with them.

[TomB_tx]

I started with an M4 in1968, and it has only needed a service once. Now I also have M2,3,5 and 6. They are all great, and quality differences are slight.

Film loading on the M4 and later is faster. M2 also has a manual reset frame counter, easy to forget to reset when loading film, at least when your other cameras reset automatically. However, I love the simplicity of the M2.

[ramarren]

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... So, assuming that M2 and M4-2 in a comparable condition, which one do you think is more reliable, easy maintenance, and relatively trouble-free? ...

 

 

They're about the same. 

 

I have an early M4-2 (1978 production run) now that I bought in 2011. It was original, no signs of ever having been opened up before when I bought it. It was marked as a "bargain" buy and cost me $700. This model M4-2 has the early viewfinder optics (same as the M4—my favorite), along with the hot shoe flash sync and steel film transport gears. The hot shoe lets me use my Cactus V2 RF flash trigger easily, on the few occasions I want to use a flash. The steel film transport gears allow me to buy a winder for the camera, if I so choose—I might, but I haven't yet. No rush, I'm not selling it. Everything on the camera works as designed/desired, I just use it and don't think about it. I slip a Leicameter MR-4 or a Voigtländer Meter II into the hot shoe when I feel like being a little more accurate about exposure settings. Otherwise I guess. 

 

Compared to the digital Ms, the M4-2 body is pretty thin. I fitted an A&A half case because it's actually thinner than I prefer; the case gives me that little bit more thickness I want for a good grip. 

 

The only thing the M4-2 has needed was to have the viewfinder cleaned, collimated, and calibrated—it was full of dust and dried up lubricant from twenty years of sitting in a drawer, and having been knocked out of alignment. Another $100 sorted that out perfectly. The shutter is slightly off at 1/1000 sec and needs a similar treatment, but it's not so far off as to bother me as yet; that will cost $300-$500 some day when I do it. 

 

Remember that these are old cameras. Nearly all of them have either been serviced or will need service. Buy based on condition and desired features, and expect to spend a little on having something serviced after you buy and test the camera. If you don't, well, that's money in the bank. 

 

Hmm. I haven't made any photos with the M4-2 in a while. Perhaps I'll load it today.

[normclarke]

The M4-2 is Leica's biggest secret. Had one now have another this time a keeper. Better than the M2 as the prism is not Canada balsam fixed with its inherent problems.

 

Best,

 

normclarke.

[arno_nyhm]

from what i just learned is that the M4 has a hotshoe. that would be a big plus over the M2, if i'd ever use a flash. but i don't.

 

from what i can see on the M4 is that the rewinding crank is easier to use than the one on the M2. i have my M2 now for 5 years and never had to rewind a film in a rush - so i don't care.

 

from what i hear, the M4 has a frame for use of 135mm-focal length. i got a Hektor 135/4,5 sitting on my shelf but never really felt the need to use it on my M2. may be for the reason that i don have the frame for 135 on my M2. but then again, i prefer SLR-cameras for longer lenses anyway. so i don't need the 135-frame on the M4. in fact it would disturb me more than it would help.

 

from what i think, the M4 is way easier to find in black than a black M2. but most of my lenses are silver. they'd look ridiculous on a black body. therefore, i love my silver M2.

 

from what i know, my M2 has a selftimer. this little feature gives me an automativ timed 2s-time in addition to the usual scale of 1/1000 to 1s. it is activated by using the B-time with the selftimer. and guess what: i sometimes like to put the camera somewhere to use one of the longer times with the selftimer. this way, i avoid shaking the camera from the movement by pressing the release. i don't use it frequently, but i use it.

 

from what i feel, the M4 is a great camera, but i love my M2.

[Frase]

from what i just learned is that the M4 has a hotshoe. that would be a big plus over the M2, if i'd ever use a flash. but i don't.

 

from what i can see on the M4 is that the rewinding crank is easier to use than the one on the M2. i have my M2 now for 5 years and never had to rewind a film in a rush - so i don't care.

 

from what i hear, the M4 has a frame for use of 135mm-focal length. i got a Hektor 135/4,5 sitting on my shelf but never really felt the need to use it on my M2. may be for the reason that i don have the frame for 135 on my M2. but then again, i prefer SLR-cameras for longer lenses anyway. so i don't need the 135-frame on the M4. in fact it would disturb me more than it would help.

 

from what i think, the M4 is way easier to find in black than a black M2. but most of my lenses are silver. they'd look ridiculous on a black body. therefore, i love my silver M2.

 

from what i know, my M2 has a selftimer. this little feature gives me an automativ timed 2s-time in addition to the usual scale of 1/1000 to 1s. it is activated by using the B-time with the selftimer. and guess what: i sometimes like to put the camera somewhere to use one of the longer times with the selftimer. this way, i avoid shaking the camera from the movement by pressing the release. i don't use it frequently, but i use it.

 

from what i feel, the M4 is a great camera, but i love my M2.

M4 doesn't have a hotshoe I don't think and to confuse things more some M2 don't have a self timer.

[anindyo]

Hi all, thanks for your valuable responses.
So far I can conclude that both are comparably reliable camera, only the M2 may be more prone to viewfinder issue due to using Canadian balsam. Any tips to avoid this  problem?

 

M2 looks more classic, but I feel that it needs more careful handling. On the other hand, M4-2 looks like user camera that one can use without much worry. Anyway, I think I will just buy one that come first in the right price.  

 

I own both of them. Never had a single problem with them. 

Which one do you use more frequently?

Edited February 11, 2017 by anindyo

[nikau]

I also had both cameras and, as others have said, both are very reliable. I still have the M2, which is the reasonably rare M2-R version that has the "M4" quick-load arrangement. For that reason, and also for its uncluttered viewfinder, it's with me for the long term! I use it with a dual-range Summicron.

[Fotoklaus]

Hi all, thanks for your valuable responses.

So far I can conclude that both are comparably reliable camera, only the M2 may be more prone to viewfinder issue due to using Canadian balsam. Any tips to avoid this  problem?

 

M2 looks more classic, but I feel that it needs more careful handling. On the other hand, M4-2 looks like user camera that one can use without much worry. Anyway, I think I will just buy one that come first in the right price.  

 

Which one do you use more frequently?

The last 15 Rolls I used the M4-2, before frequently the M2. Both for BW-film, my M6 for slide film, in general.

But if one of them would be broken, I could live with the one left as good as the other way round.