M10 compared to M-D typ 262

[ramarren]

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I was in Leica Store - San Francisco yesterday to see the M10 in person. I had my M-D typ 262 with me to compare key differences. 

 

The M10 is impressively slimmer in feel than the M-P but not so much slimmer in the hand compared to the M-D. A little bit, yes. The protrusion of the control bits and the LCD on the M-D is a little less intrusive than on the M-P but at least to my hands it has nowhere near the handling comfort of the M-D. Such is the price of having the display and buttons, I guess. It's not without merit but I still like the feel of the M-D more. 

 

The viewfinder on the M10, however, is a revelation. Finally an M viewfinder that I can see all the frame lines from 28mm to 135 easily and comfortably, with my glasses on! The focusing patch is nicely a bit larger due to the magnification, making it easier to focus, and I can for the very first time see something outside of the 28mm frames. Frankly, when Leica introduces an "M-D10" model, it will be very difficult to resist it for this viewfinder alone. 

 

I didn't spend too much time looking at the M10 ... the viewfinder difference was my biggest interest ... but the new, simpler menu structure and buttons are nice, the simplified on/off switch is much more to my liking than the off/single/continuous/self switch on the older models, and the M10's ISO dial is welcome but would take a little getting used to. I prefer the M-D's rear-mounted thumb dial for ISO setting, it works more ergonomically for my fingers, but of course is impossible with a big LCD on the back of the camera. I didn't make any exposures with the camera (no card in it...) but fired the shutter a few times: sounds almost identical to the M-D to my ears. 

 

That's about it ... I liked the M10 very much, but will wait for Leica to produce an M-D version of it. I want that version of the optical viewfinder, but won't give up the handling feel and utter simplicity of the M-D for it. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by ramarren

[i-Leica]

 but won't give up the handling feel and utter simplicity of the M-D for it. 

 

 

 

well.... just turn off the Monitor on M10 and you have M-D, all about simplicity....

Edited February 5, 2017 by i-Leica

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[ramarren]

well.... just turn off the Monitor on M10 and you have M-D, all about simplicity....

 

 

You can't get the handling feel that way. The LCD and buttons remain in the way. 

[Kwesi]

...Frankly, when Leica introduces an "M-D10" model, it will be very difficult to resist it for this viewfinder alone.

 

Agreed! As long as Leica brings the ISO dial back to the back of the camera and uses the wifi to allow 2 way communication between phone/tablet/computer so we have full menu configuration.

Let's hope they don't get lazy and simply remove the screen and wifi and say voila!! The essence of photography

[LeicaErl]

Here is your Leica M10-D

http://leicarumors.com/2017/01/27/here-is-your-leica-m10-d.aspx/

[Peter H]

Everyone (including me) initially concentrates on the handling of the M10 when they first see it because that is the most obvious immediate change. But the sensor improvement is the most significant change in my as-yet very limited experience.

 

If the M10 body and controls were identical to the M240's, the new sensor would probably still be enough to persuade me to upgrade from the M240.

 

I can't comment on whether anyone would find the M10's body enough of a problem to prevent them from upgrading from the MD, or whether the MD's sensor differs so much from the M240's. But I do suggest you take the new sensor into account when making comparisons.

[ramarren]

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Here is your Leica M10-D

http://leicarumors.com/2017/01/27/here-is-your-leica-m10-d.aspx/

 

 

Right. I have to add a $200 leather case to the camera, which makes it thicker and taller, to cover the buttons and LCD. And then I have to take the cover off every time I need to get a card in or out, or change the battery. And I don't have the ISO control wheel in the center of the back, the ideal location that I can reach with both thumbs instantaneously and that I can click stop in third-stop increments as I want even in pitch blackness... 

 

You simply don't understand the point of the M-D's handling difference and its simplicity. It has nothing to do with chimping. It's simpler because there are NO OPTIONS ... there's no need to even know that they exist and are not being used, there's nothing to configure other than the date and time which you only have to do twice a year if you track daylight savings time, period. It's easier to handle because you don't need a case to make it easy to hold onto and handle, to protect the screen or cover the buttons ... It's easier to handle because there is NO screen to protect, there are no buttons to accidentally touch and change settings with, because you don't have to have a case to deal with it, etc etc. 

 

I work with the M-D exactly the way I worked with my M6 or work with my M4-2 (adding the M6 meter). I can't work with my M-P or the M10 that way because there are a host of other things to know about in using it, which I find distracting, and there's stuff in the way of my hands, that this cover partially solves.

 

The case does look nice and trim. But it is most certainly not the same thing as having and M-D with the M10 viewfinder and sensor. 

 

Everyone (including me) initially concentrates on the handling of the M10 when they first see it because that is the most obvious immediate change. But the sensor improvement is the most significant change in my as-yet very limited experience.

 

If the M10 body and controls were identical to the M240's, the new sensor would probably still be enough to persuade me to upgrade from the M240.

 

I can't comment on whether anyone would find the M10's body enough of a problem to prevent them from upgrading from the MD, or whether the MD's sensor differs so much from the M240's. But I do suggest you take the new sensor into account when making comparisons.

 

Given the performance of the typ 262 sensor (a tiny notch better than that of the typ 240 sensor), the sensor improvements and data handling improvements are significant but not my first consideration. The optical viewfinder is almost enough, on its own, to motivate spending the money for the M10 (or a hoped-for M-D10) without any further thought.

 

I have both the M-P 240 and the M-D 262 at present, still. I might be convinced to sell off the M-P and buy the M10 with that supplying a good bit of the funding for the viewfinder alone (and I just happen to have the Visoflex-020 because I bought it for the X typ 113 ... and yes, the X typ 113 would be sold too). The sensor improvements will be additional advantage. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by ramarren

[digitalfx]

 It's easier to handle because there is NO screen to protect, there are no buttons to accidentally touch and change settings with, because you don't have to have a case to deal with it, etc etc. 

 

I work with the M-D exactly the way I worked with my M6 or work with my M4-2 (adding the M6 meter). I can't work with my M-P or the M10 that way because there are a host of other things to know about in using it, which I find distracting, and there's stuff in the way of my hands, that this cover partially solves.

 

 

I have never handled my camera differently because it has a screen vs my film M's (which I still shoot with)...and I have not been concerned with accidentally touching buttons on the M10 as they are very well designed (both physical and software design that prevents accidental engaging), nor have I inadvertently changed the settings while shooting...yet

I find it quite easy to ignore the screen at times...yet its there when I need it.

 

I do agree that it can be liberating to just shoot and not worry about all these details, and its far easier to do this when they don't exist...but to suggest that isn't possible on the M10 is not accurate. Its smaller size and simplified design make it a perfect hybrid. Try it for a few weeks...you might actually be surprised.

Edited February 5, 2017 by digitalfx

[ramarren]

I didn't suggest that "it isn't possible." I've said that it doesn't work for me.  

 

I stopped using the M-P when I acquired the SL, because the SL does a much better job of getting out of my way: I can handle the camera easily and without distraction in a way that I find difficult with the M-P. This despite that the M-P with a 35mm lens on it is smaller and should be handier, and also despite the fact that the SL has about a bazillion more features and capabilities than the M-P. As soon as the M-D arrived and I took it out of the box, I knew it solved this problem. And the subsequent six months of use demonstrate it conclusively to the only person in this debate that matters: me. The M-D gave back my Leica M experience in a digital M. It's the first one that did. 

 

I don't want a "perfect hybrid" and I refuse to "make do." I want cameras that work for me, the way I work, that meld with my lenses and fingers and eye such that they disappear when I'm working. The M-D does that, the SL does that. The M9, the M-P, the M10 ... and many other cameras ... do not. This is why the SL and the M-D are right for me, despite that other cameras may have more features, better specs, etc etc. 

 

And that's about the end of that story as far as I'm concerned. 

[LeicaErl]

 

 

You simply don't understand the point of the M-D's handling difference and its simplicity. It has nothing to do with chimping. It's simpler because there are NO OPTIONS ... 

I do understand. My primary camera is a M3 (for b&w) and my 2nd camera is a MP which I use for color film. I don't have a digital camera... 

[ScotDoc]

I didn't suggest that "it isn't possible." I've said that it doesn't work for me.  

 

I stopped using the M-P when I acquired the SL, because the SL does a much better job of getting out of my way: I can handle the camera easily and without distraction in a way that I find difficult with the M-P. This despite that the M-P with a 35mm lens on it is smaller and should be handier, and also despite the fact that the SL has about a bazillion more features and capabilities than the M-P. As soon as the M-D arrived and I took it out of the box, I knew it solved this problem. And the subsequent six months of use demonstrate it conclusively to the only person in this debate that matters: me. The M-D gave back my Leica M experience in a digital M. It's the first one that did. 

 

I don't want a "perfect hybrid" and I refuse to "make do." I want cameras that work for me, the way I work, that meld with my lenses and fingers and eye such that they disappear when I'm working. The M-D does that, the SL does that. The M9, the M-P, the M10 ... and many other cameras ... do not. This is why the SL and the M-D are right for me, despite that other cameras may have more features, better specs, etc etc. 

 

And that's about the end of that story as far as I'm concerned.

 

Wow. Beautifully explained. I too find the M-D so attractive for these reasons.

[Jeff S]

Interesting feedback from the person who wrote earlier that a viewfinder just has to "be competent"...   http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/261949-leica-sl-or-hasselblad-x1d/?p=3072688

 

Oh, that's right, I'm now being ignored. 

 

Jeff

[jdlaing]

I can't ignore you. Too much entertainment value would be lost.