Peter H Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share #21 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) this is the real shame...so a Leica dealer has all of 4 different camera models to demo and they don't know how the newest M works? Well, you are assuming that there was no fault in the camera. The Menu button always worked first time. It was only the play button that wouldn't respond. PS, and if there was no camera fault but five very experienced photographers couldn't figure it out, it argues slightly against the intuitive perfection of the design. But as I say, I don't see it as a big deal. But worth understanding. Edited February 1, 2017 by Peter H 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Hi Peter H, Take a look here Leica M10 and Hasselblad X1D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ramarren Posted February 1, 2017 Share #22 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) (M10) ... The viewfinder blows everything else including the SL's away. Just no comparison in my opinion. (I didn't try the EVF but we know all about that.) ... I'm not sure what you meant by "I didn't try the EVF but we know all about that". The M10 viewfinder is a nice refinement on the M optical viewfinder/rangefinder. It's useless for: precise framing macro focusing any lens longer than 135mm any lens shorter than 28mm The SL can capture sequences at up to 11fps, the M10 up to 5fps. The SL can make 33 exposures at 11fps, the M10 about 10 at 5fps. The M10 can handle about 1 stop higher ISO setting at the same noise level as the SL. There is NO difference in speed of operation between these two cameras for single frame captures. The fact that you prefer the M10's optical viewfinder over the SL's EVF (which is far FAR more capable than the M10's EVF) is of no particular importance in rating the objective capabilities of the two cameras. If you like one more than the other, if you find one more suitable for your use than the other, that's fine, but please don't confuse a personal opinion with objective comparison. (M10 vs X1D) ... It is impossible to say that one camera is better than the other because they are different in important ways. They are both fantastic cameras. The trouble is, the camera shop won't give them away but insists on asking for money. Absolutely the same thing can be said for the M10 vs the SL, and for the SL vs the X1D. All three are fantastic cameras. Each of them is intended to do a different thing best, while all three of them can do a lot of the same things extremely well such that you cannot tell the difference in the photos they produce. You have to be clear about: What do you do with a camera? How do you want the camera to work? What do you like about particular facets of a camera's operation? What do you dislike about particular facets of a camera's operation? Once you have those four things clearly identified, you can decide which camera is the best one for you. For me, the SL is a near-perfect "do anything very well" systems camera with few limitations. An M (any M) is a more limited camera for more specific use, that specific use being "more casual shooting with a smaller package and a limited range of focal lengths". The X1D, for me, would be another more limited camera for more specific use, that specific use being "ultra-wide to portrait tele work" with a different Field of View to Depth of Field relationship and more pixels for higher resolution tonal capture/larger output products. I'm fortunate in that I can afford both the SL and the M of my choice (currently the M-D) and the lenses I want for them. I could also afford the X1D if I decide that it is valuable enough to me to acquire it by selling off other equipment that I own but no longer use much. But that doesn't color my objective evaluation of the cameras. Edited February 1, 2017 by ramarren 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted February 1, 2017 Share #23 Posted February 1, 2017 Having had the M240, and having presently the SL, I greatly miss the M viewfinder in that I can see an object moving to the frame lines with a 50 or 90 and have time to shoot whereas ONLY seeing the actual final view with the SL EVF, I often miss the defining moment as by the time the subject enters the view, I'm often too late. I was shooting my son, a goalie, playing hockey and I wish I had the M with a 90mm so I would've seen the opponent shoot while he was out off the frame but visible on the OVF and take his shot. I ended up shooting saves too late. Hence, the M10 will be an excellent complement to the SL. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Share #24 Posted February 1, 2017 Interesting point Cliff thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 1, 2017 Share #25 Posted February 1, 2017 Having had the M240, and having presently the SL, I greatly miss the M viewfinder in that I can see an object moving to the frame lines with a 50 or 90 and have time to shoot whereas ONLY seeing the actual final view with the SL EVF, I often miss the defining moment as by the time the subject enters the view, I'm often too late. I was shooting my son, a goalie, playing hockey and I wish I had the M with a 90mm so I would've seen the opponent shoot while he was out off the frame but visible on the OVF and take his shot. I ended up shooting saves too late. Hence, the M10 will be an excellent complement to the SL. This is nothing more than the long-standing debate between SLR and RF users. SLR users doing sports and other endeavors where looking outside of the taking frame to see what's coming is advantageous learned how to keep BOTH eyes open more than four decades ago to solve this particular issue with TTL viewing and focusing. Yes, an M makes a superb complement to the SL. For me, it's the M-D model, but M10 is simply a more full-featured M camera with some useful additional capabilities. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share #26 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure what you meant by "I didn't try the EVF but we know all about that". The M10 viewfinder is a nice refinement on the M optical viewfinder/rangefinder. It's useless for: precise framing macro focusing any lens longer than 135mm any lens shorter than 28mm The SL can capture sequences at up to 11fps, the M10 up to 5fps. The SL can make 33 exposures at 11fps, the M10 about 10 at 5fps. The M10 can handle about 1 stop higher ISO setting at the same noise level as the SL. There is NO difference in speed of operation between these two cameras for single frame captures. The fact that you prefer the M10's optical viewfinder over the SL's EVF (which is far FAR more capable than the M10's EVF) is of no particular importance in rating the objective capabilities of the two cameras. If you like one more than the other, if you find one more suitable for your use than the other, that's fine, but please don't confuse a personal opinion with objective comparison. Absolutely the same thing can be said for the M10 vs the SL, and for the SL vs the X1D. All three are fantastic cameras. Each of them is intended to do a different thing best, while all three of them can do a lot of the same things extremely well such that you cannot tell the difference in the photos they produce. You have to be clear about: What do you do with a camera? How do you want the camera to work? What do you like about particular facets of a camera's operation? What do you dislike about particular facets of a camera's operation? Once you have those four things clearly identified, you can decide which camera is the best one for you. For me, the SL is a near-perfect "do anything very well" systems camera with few limitations. An M (any M) is a more limited camera for more specific use, that specific use being "more casual shooting with a smaller package and a limited range of focal lengths". The X1D, for me, would be another more limited camera for more specific use, that specific use being "ultra-wide to portrait tele work" with a different Field of View to Depth of Field relationship and more pixels for higher resolution tonal capture/larger output products. I'm fortunate in that I can afford both the SL and the M of my choice (currently the M-D) and the lenses I want for them. I could also afford the X1D if I decide that it is valuable enough to me to acquire it by selling off other equipment that I own but no longer use much. But that doesn't color my objective evaluation of the cameras. Perhaps you didn't read the very first part, where I said my observations were subjective, unsubstantiated and unscientific. They are, however, sincere and I hope they may be of a different kind of interest to some people from the countless often fruitless attempts to make objective the comparisons between things that are not really a matter for objective comparison. Edited February 1, 2017 by Peter H 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2017 Share #27 Posted February 2, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Perhaps you didn't read the very first part, where I said my observations were subjective, unsubstantiated and unscientific. They are, however, sincere and I hope they may be of a different kind of interest to some people from the countless often fruitless attempts to make objective the comparisons between things that are not really a matter for objective comparison. Don't forget silly. You know i'm never going to let this go. RickBullDog 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share #28 Posted February 2, 2017 Don't forget silly. You know i'm never going to let this go. RickBullDog Well, to prove just how silly I'm capable of being, I ordered my M10 today! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #29 Posted February 2, 2017 Well, to prove just how silly I'm capable of being, I ordered my M10 today! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2017 Share #30 Posted February 2, 2017 Well, to prove just how silly I'm capable of being, I ordered my M10 today! Silly boy... CONGRATULATIONS!!! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2017 Share #31 Posted February 2, 2017 Join the happy throng then Rick! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2017 Share #32 Posted February 2, 2017 Join the happy throng then Rick! ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2017 Share #33 Posted February 2, 2017 Haha I see Peter joined the wrong and not you! LOL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distagon Posted February 2, 2017 Share #34 Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Well, you are assuming that there was no fault in the camera. The Menu button always worked first time. It was only the play button that wouldn't respond. PS, and if there was no camera fault but five very experienced photographers couldn't figure it out, it argues slightly against the intuitive perfection of the design. But as I say, I don't see it as a big deal. But worth understanding. Reminds me of the first couple fo times I tried to change ISO on the M240.(I recall Kai of ex-DigitRev had the same confusion during his video review years ago.) Perhaps there is a simple but non-intuitive method that just takes some learning? Edited February 2, 2017 by Distagon 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 2, 2017 Share #35 Posted February 2, 2017 Well, to prove just how silly I'm capable of being, I ordered my M10 today! I hope you enjoy the heck out of it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share #36 Posted February 2, 2017 I hope you enjoy the heck out of it. Thank you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2017 Share #37 Posted February 2, 2017 Haha I see Peter joined the wrong and not you! LOL. I guess I must be incredibly stupid. I don't understand. Peter joined the wrong? ...and not me? Not me what? Sorry, I must be thick this morning. Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2017 Share #38 Posted February 2, 2017 I guess I must be incredibly stupid. I don't understand. Peter joined the wrong? ...and not me? Not me what? Sorry, I must be thick this morning. Rick No not you me, I was thick throng not wrong. I too have my M10 on order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 2, 2017 Share #39 Posted February 2, 2017 No not you me, I was thick throng not wrong. I too have my M10 on order. Last time I went thick throng I spent a night in jail. It was worth it though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 3, 2017 Share #40 Posted February 3, 2017 No not you me, I was thick throng not wrong. I too have my M10 on order.I still don't understand. I still don't understand you. I am glad you have an M10 on order. I'm sure you will enjoy it as much as I do mine. Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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