Popular Post Peter H Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Share #1 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I spent today with an X1D and an M10. A few observations, subjective, unsubstantiated and unscientific as ever: Wow, for both of them, in different ways. In summary, the M10 is the most rapid digital camera to use that has ever been invented. You can crank up the iso fearlessly if you want to and combine fast shutter speeds with sensible apertures and never miss focus again. It hasn't the record-breaking fps rate or AF speed of some field artillery, but use it as an experienced M user knows how and it won't ever miss a beat. Apply the tricks you've learned with your previous Ms and you can take on the world with the M10. The viewfinder blows everything else including the SL's away. Just no comparison in my opinion. (I didn't try the EVF but we know all about that.) The X1D is sublime. It isn't quite the go-anywhere catch-all-life-in-a-heartbeat camera that the M10 is, but the IQ will make your heart skip a beat anyway. (Enough heartbeat metaphors already.) Gorgeous. Don't let anyone tell you there's not much difference between this mini-medium format and Leica's full-frame beauties. There is if you love looking at photographs. You can see it on screen, let alone in prints. I'll post some examples soon. In the meantime trust me if you dare. I'm not making it up. But as we all know, iQ is in the mind of the beholder and a good photograph that you actually managed to get will always beat a better photo that you just missed. It is impossible to say that one camera is better than the other because they are different in important ways. They are both fantastic cameras. The trouble is, the camera shop won't give them away but insists on asking for money. I tested the X1D for shutter lag by photographing cars as they passed a set point in the road through a gap in a wall about twenty meters ahead of me, preparing myself by listening for the approaching vehicle and responding in the fraction of a second in which they became visible. No significant lag that I could detect: perhaps a nanosecond behind the M10, but if you miss a picture it will be your fault and not the camera's, unless you're waiting for the AF, which is not the quickest, but I could happily live with it. MF works very nicely, but it's no rangefinder M. The shutter sound is fine but some won't like its sharp double-click, once as it opens, the second as it shuts. It's louder than the M10's for sure. I think it's the second click that might give the impression of lag to those who are used to focal plane shutters. I could be wrong. The viewfinder is OK. It does its job. That's all. It took three different SD cards to get it going. All should have worked. I don't think it's 100% ready yet, but firmware updates keep coming apparently. The controls couldn't be easier to use. It is the most comfortable-to-handle camera ever, perfectly weighted and balanced and natural and intuitive to use. It makes a terrific partner for the almost as perfect M10 because they complement each other's strengths and both are a joy to use and will reward you in ways that will make you glad you took up photography all those years ago. If I could only have one? I can only have one. I'll let you know... Edited January 31, 2017 by Peter H 28 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Peter H, Take a look here Leica M10 and Hasselblad X1D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steve Spencer Posted January 31, 2017 Share #2 Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Peter, I just cancelled my X1D preorder today and ordered the M10 and the Fuji GFX. Paired down my lens selection to make up the difference in price. I think I will be quite happy with this combination. The Leica M10 will be my lens for shooting on the go, for capturing action, for travel, and for hiking. I will use the Fuji in the studio, when I can drive up to shoot landscapes and for portraits with flash. I was hoping the X1D could do all of that, but I think this two camera solution will be better in the end. I don't have confidence that Hassy can sort out the firmware of the X1D and get them in production any time soon either. How did you find the firmware? Was it slow to start up? Could you move the focus point from the centre? I am hoping that in the next generation Hassy will work things out and I can get one of these beautiful cameras, but for now I am very happy with the M10 and the Fuji GFX. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share #3 Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Peter, I just cancelled my X1D preorder today and ordered the M10 and the Fuji GFX. Paired down my lens selection to make up the difference in price. I think I will be quite happy with this combination. The Leica M10 will be my lens for shooting on the go, for capturing action, for travel, and for hiking. I will use the Fuji in the studio, when I can drive up to shoot landscapes and for portraits with flash. I was hoping the X1D could do all of that, but I think this two camera solution will be better in the end. I don't have confidence that Hassy can sort out the firmware of the X1D and get them in production any time soon either. How did you find the firmware? Was it slow to start up? Could you move the focus point from the centre? I am hoping that in the next generation Hassy will work things out and I can get one of these beautiful cameras, but for now I am very happy with the M10 and the Fuji GFX. You may well have made the best decision possible for your needs. The X1D takes a while to start up initially. About ten minutes if you factor in finding an SD card that it likes! But with an acceptable card I'd say it takes about 6 or 7 seconds to start up, which feels like a week. But once it's on, it wakes up from sleep pretty-much instantly, certainly by the time it reaches your eye, so I don't really think the initial start up is much of a problem. Moving the AF points was easy enough and felt quite natural. The Fuji will have far more points though. But I'd have to say that the SD card problem did worry me a bit. Equally though, I had a few problems with the M10's controls not responding, but that may have been my fault. I didn't read any instructions before using it. I expected to be able to see the photos I'd taken by pressing the play button as on the M240, but it took about four presses before it worked each time I tried. And then they wouldn't scroll so I could only see the last photo. As I say, I don't know whether that's a firmware problem or an idiot-user issue. The Fuji GFX50s will be a fascinating camera, quite different again in how it can be used though I expect. It feels from what I can gather like more of a studio camera than the X1D, but I expect both will be quite versatile, and the Fuji will have faster, if larger, lenses. And don't forget one of the significant differences for some users of lighting will be the leaf v fp shutter, though Fuji do promise an adapter to allow leaf shutters in the future. The world's changing again! None of them are poor cameras, unless they don't work or you can't afford them... 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2017 Share #4 Posted January 31, 2017 Well I do share your enthusiam of the X1D Peter, but after some soul searching and a test of the M10, I cancelled the X1D and ordered the M10. That will replace my SL as I cannot have both. "The viewfinder blows everything else including the SL's away." - really? (can you elaborate), are you talking from the point of view as a previous M user? I like the simplicity of the M10, set Auto ISO, Auto speed. What is left ah manual Fstop .... all of that can be set before switching the camera on. Now moving cars focus on a spot, wait, anticipate and pan away. I am sure that is going to a lot of fun! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmuussoni Posted January 31, 2017 Share #5 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) I spent today with an X1D and an M10. A few observations, subjective, unsubstantiated and unscientific as ever: Wow, for both of them, in different ways. In summary, the M10 is the most rapid digital camera to use that has ever been invented. You can crank up the iso fearlessly if you want to and combine fast shutter speeds with sensible apertures and never miss focus again. It hasn't the record-breaking fps rate or AF speed of some field artillery, but use it as an experienced M user knows how and it won't ever miss a beat. Apply the tricks you've learned with your previous Ms and you can take on the world with the M10. The viewfinder blows everything else including the SL's away. Just no comparison in my opinion. (I didn't try the EVF but we know all about that.) The X1D is sublime. It isn't quite the go-anywhere catch-all-life-in-a-heartbeat camera that the M10 is, but the IQ will make your heart skip a beat anyway. (Enough heartbeat metaphors already.) Gorgeous. Don't let anyone tell you there's not much difference between this mini-medium format and Leica's full-frame beauties. There is if you love looking at photographs. You can see it on screen, let alone in prints. I'll post some examples soon. In the meantime trust me if you dare. I'm not making it up. But as we all know, iQ is in the mind of the beholder and a good photograph that you actually managed to get will always beat a better photo that you just missed. It is impossible to say that one camera is better than the other because they are different in important ways. They are both fantastic cameras. The trouble is, the camera shop won't give them away but insists on asking for money. I tested the X1D for shutter lag by photographing cars as they passed a set point in the road through a gap in a wall about twenty meters ahead of me, preparing myself by listening for the approaching vehicle and responding in the fraction of a second in which they became visible. No significant lag that I could detect: perhaps a nanosecond behind the M10, but if you miss a picture it will be your fault and not the camera's, unless you're waiting for the AF, which is not the quickest, but I could happily live with it. MF works very nicely, but it's no rangefinder M. The shutter sound is fine but some won't like its sharp double-click, once as it opens, the second as it shuts. It's louder than the M10's for sure. I think it's the second click that might give the impression of lag to those who are used to focal plane shutters. I could be wrong. The viewfinder is OK. It does its job. That's all. It took three different SD cards to get it going. All should have worked. I don't think it's 100% ready yet, but firmware updates keep coming apparently. The controls couldn't be easier to use. It is the most comfortable-to-handle camera ever, perfectly weighted and balanced and natural and intuitive to use. It makes a terrific partner for the almost as perfect M10 because they complement each other's strengths and both are a joy to use and will reward you in ways that will make you glad you took up photography all those years ago. If I could only have one? I can only have one. I'll let you know... Everything you wrote about X1D I agree 100 %. If I would not have to worry about the money I definitely would get both M10 and X1D. Sadly it's not possible Edited January 31, 2017 by Tmuussoni Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 31, 2017 Share #6 Posted January 31, 2017 The Fuji GFX50s will be a fascinating camera, quite different again in how it can be used though I expect. It feels from what I can gather like more of a studio camera than the X1D, but I expect both will be quite versatile, and the Fuji will have faster, if larger, lenses. And don't forget one of the significant differences for some users of lighting will be the leaf v fp shutter, though Fuji do promise an adapter to allow leaf shutters in the future. I'll be considering the Fuji as a weather sealed (and cold resistant) camera ideally suited for landscapes. The lenses are rather small....the initial 63mm f2.8, for instance, is smaller/thinner and lighter than the Hasselblad 45 f3.5. And the 32-64mm f4 zoom is not terribly bigger (about an inch) or heavier (about half pound) than the Hasselblad 30mm f3.5, considering its versatility. The 120 macro is the only much bigger lens from the initial group. Some early reviews on the Fuji EVF suggest it may be as good or even better than the one on the SL....including higher magnification. I'll see....literally...if so. The M10 is looking like a nice counterpart (in lieu of my M240), assuming reports on improved VF/RF and IQ prove true for me. I also appreciate its better weather sealing (which I don't see mentioned as much as other attributes, but important to me). The X1D is the pretty lady of the group, but fear that she'll be high maintenance. The VF, the limited initial lens range, and the shutter clanks could be additional concerns for me. [Kevin Raber wrote in his LuLa review that it is maybe the worst sounding shutter of any camera he has ever used.....and that the clickety-click-click made it hard to know when the actual exposure was taken.] I'll take another look at it to make a final judgment; on paper, and by its looks/size and ergonomics, it also has appeal as a weather sealed system for landscape applications. Jeff 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted January 31, 2017 Share #7 Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Aye, Peter. Quite the dilemma, isn't it? I was primed to pull the trigger on the X1D several months ago. Alas. And although the M10 and the X1D live in entirely different photographic spheres... I have decided to go with the new Leica. Like you, I can only do one. The Leica has going for it all the gestalt that Leica's have always had. Fast, inauspicious... and carrying it with you you always know there is the possibility of capturing a part of life. Blood hot and beating. The Hasselblad, though... oh, my goodness! I have the same sensor in my CFV-50c back and although the photography is necessarily slower - and more often than not tied to a tripod - the results are to die for. The best black and white imagery I've ever seen comes not from my beloved Monochrom's, but from converting one of those amazing 50mp files. The X1D holds the promising tease of perhaps marrying the best of two worlds... the insinuate-into-the-very-center-of-life access that Leica M's have always brought with the stupid crazy image quality of medium format. Perhaps down the road a bit... Edited January 31, 2017 by Jager 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 31, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 31, 2017 I expected to be able to see the photos I'd taken by pressing the play button as on the M240, but it took about four presses before it worked each time I tried. And then they wouldn't scroll so I could only see the last photo. As I say, I don't know whether that's a firmware problem or an idiot-user issue. That's odd, I vote for operator error although not sure what you could possibly be doing wrong. I have no issues at all with playback...its instantaneous and responsive on my M10 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2017 Share #9 Posted January 31, 2017 Don't you press Play and then to scroll use either the rear wheel of the small direction controller on the right to scroll through the images? Whichever way it is I used it instictively and likewise no issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share #10 Posted January 31, 2017 ................... "The viewfinder blows everything else including the SL's away." - really? (can you elaborate), are you talking from the point of view as a previous M user? .............. Well, in my opinion it does. It is not a through-the-lens view, for a start. It is the clearest, most direct un-interpreted (and uninterrupted) view of the world we can get that also performs the function of allowing us to frame and focus. It is more connected to the view that the world is the subject that we simply reflect, than the idea that the photograph is a discrete object that we create. This is just my personal take so yes, it probably has a lot to do with my philosophical preference for Leica Ms over most other types of camera. ............ The X1D is the pretty lady of the group, but fear that she'll be high maintenance. The VF, the limited initial lens range, and the shutter clanks could be additional concerns for me. [Kevin Raber wrote in his LuLa review that it is maybe the worst sounding shutter of any camera he has ever used.....and that the clickety-click-click made it hard to know when the actual exposure was taken.] I'll take another look at it to make a final judgment; on paper, and by its looks/size and ergonomics, it also has appeal as a weather sealed system for landscape applications. Jeff I've now handled three X1Ds, two for extended periods, and each one has had a nice, precise double click that I find quite satisfying. Not silent but quieter and less like a mechanical collision than the average SLR, I'd say. Not that I've used an SLR of any kind since I got rid of my Nikon D700, so maybe newer ones are better. It's obviously a personal thing, but it certainly doesn't clickety-click-click. Not in my experience anyway. Don't you press Play and then to scroll use either the rear wheel of the small direction controller on the right to scroll through the images? Whichever way it is I used it instictively and likewise no issue. I just pressed play and nothing happened, time after time. On about the fourth attempt each time, the most recent image would appear, but no amount of scrolling would bring up previous photos. The shop staff couldn't explain it. I assumed I'd have to read the manual to figure it out but since it was so different from my previous digital M's, a fault is also possible. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 1, 2017 Share #11 Posted February 1, 2017 Peter, that't on you. The Menu button gave me a hesitation on if the camera was working. I realized that if you push the buttons in it doesn't work. You have to staccato push the buttons and they work fine. I also thought the demo camera was not working. I'm not sure what was going on with your scrolling but, I haven't had that problem. Rick 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 1, 2017 Share #12 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) You have to staccato push the buttons and they work fine. I also thought the demo camera was not working. What do you mean Rick? For my camera you just push "Play" and the image comes up instantly. Then push left or right arrow to cycle thru the images...again, instant response. If you want to zoom in you turn the thumb wheel, instant response. It couldn't be more simple or intuitive. Are you sure the demo camera had a card installed? Did it have more than one image? Edited February 1, 2017 by digitalfx 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 1, 2017 Share #13 Posted February 1, 2017 Try pushing it and holding for a split second and it won't respond. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 1, 2017 Share #14 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) maybe the camera was asleep? If the camera is on, but in sleep mode pushing play won't display an image. You have to wake up the camera first with the shutter release. Maybe this could be a FW request. Allow wake from sleep by pushing any of the three buttons. Edited February 1, 2017 by digitalfx 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 1, 2017 Share #15 Posted February 1, 2017 Try pushing it and holding for a split second and it won't respond. ahhh...gotcha. Yes, just tap the button. I never tried this. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) maybe the camera was asleep? If the camera is on, but in sleep mode pushing play won't display an image. You have to wake up the camera first with the shutter release. Maybe this could be a FW request. Allow wake from sleep by pushing any of the three buttons. No, it was in normal use, not from sleep. Anyway, it's no big deal and I'm happy to learn a new way of pressing a button if that's what's needed! Edited February 1, 2017 by Peter H Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 1, 2017 Share #17 Posted February 1, 2017 No, it was in normal use, not from sleep. Anyway, it's no big deal and I'm happy to learn a new way of pressing a button if that's what's needed! My first experience was normal use like you. I was just pushing it wrong. And, it did seem odd to me until I figured it out. I think Leica was trying to make it harder to accidentally turn on LV or Menu or Play when in a camera bag - and I know Leica shooters looooove bags. Rick 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 1, 2017 Share #18 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) clic It's obviously a personal thing, but it certainly doesn't clickety-click-click. Not in my experience anyway. An exact quote from Kevin Raber. He even emphasized an additional click after the clickety-click. I'll need to try it again (demo'ed last June) and judge. Jeff Edited February 1, 2017 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 1, 2017 Share #19 Posted February 1, 2017 The shop staff couldn't explain it. this is the real shame...so a Leica dealer has all of 4 different camera models to demo and they don't know how the newest M works? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Share #20 Posted February 1, 2017 Well, in my opinion it does. It is not a through-the-lens view, for a start. It is the clearest, most direct un-interpreted (and uninterrupted) view of the world we can get that also performs the function of allowing us to frame and focus. It is more connected to the view that the world is the subject that we simply reflect, than the idea that the photograph is a discrete object that we create. This is just my personal take so yes, it probably has a lot to do with my philosophical preference for Leica Ms over most other types of camera. I do understand what you mean completely. However I do think the SL is also a good viewfinder but in another way. Looking at it from DSLR eyes, the SL's is a revelation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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