M10 - the Image Thread

[nico1974]

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There will be very few users indeed who can properly view your images, let alone in an internet browser, when you use the Adobe RGB colour space. Try using sRGB.

 

The images on flickr are exported as sRGB from Lightroom but are then further compressed by flickr hence the banding that a couple of people on this thread have mentioned.

 

The point of providing the TIFF file is to stop anyone from claiming that the M10 has a problem with colour banding - it is just a limitation of JPG, the sRGB colour space and the aggressive compression used by flickr.

[Stef63]

There will be very few users indeed who can properly view your images, let alone in an internet browser, when you use the Adobe RGB colour space. Try using sRGB.

I did open the image on my iPad in Safari for iOS without a problem. Am I missing something? No banding as far as I can see but am I seeing the real Tiff in Adobe RGB ? Edited March 3, 2017 by Stef63

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[kamilmanafov]

First image so far

https://500px.com/photo/201049781/moscow-lights-by-kamil-manafov?ctx_page=1&from=user&user_id=12975105

 

P.S.

Don't have access to post an image via link from editor...

Edited March 3, 2017 by kamilmanafov

[pop]

I did open the image on my iPad in Safari for iOS without a problem. Am I missing something? No banding as far as I can see but am I seeing the real Tiff in Adobe RGB ?

I can see the artefacts on two different computers, both of them recently calibrated. They're present on all but the second image, but quite prominent on the last one. It's not "banding" but "posterizing" - the color gradients in the sky exhibit steps instead of smooth transitions.

[nico1974]

I can see the artefacts on two different computers, both of them recently calibrated. They're present on all but the second image, but quite prominent on the last one. It's not "banding" but "posterizing" - the color gradients in the sky exhibit steps instead of smooth transitions

 

Which proves that the posterisation it is due to the aggressive flickr jpg compression - are you still seeing the posterisation in the TIFF file?

[Stef63]

I can see the artefacts on two different computers, both of them recently calibrated. They're present on all but the second image, but quite prominent on the last one. It's not "banding" but "posterizing" - the color gradients in the sky exhibit steps instead of smooth transitions.

Yes but are they also present on your two monitors for the image Nico provided via the download link to his google drive file?

[nico1974]

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I did open the image on my iPad in Safari for iOS without a problem. Am I missing something? No banding as far as I can see but am I seeing the real Tiff in Adobe RGB ?

 

The ipad can not display the full Adobe RGB colour space and will display/convert the image to sRGB however as the TIFF file is not compressed you are unlikely to see the posterisation artifacts that the compressed flicker images are showing - so all expected behaviour as far as I can tell :-)

[pop]

Which proves that the posterisation it is due to the aggressive flickr jpg compression - are you still seeing the posterisation in the TIFF file?

Yes, I still see some posterisation, but it's much more discreet, and it does not matter whether I transform it into the sRGB space or not. 

[nico1974]

Yes, I still see some posterisation, but it's much more discreet, and it does not matter whether I transform it into the sRGB space or not. 

 

OK in that case your monitor/graphics card is unable to display 10bit per channel colour and what you are observing is a limitation of your hardware/system - have a read here of what you need to do to enable it - there is also a test file attached in the article to test you have set it all up correctly

 

https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support

[Steve Spencer]

I see no banding at all with my system and that is true for both my wide gamut monitor and the built-in monitor for my iMac Retina 5K (that is not wide gamut). It looks a bit better on the wide gamut screen, but it looks good on both and no banding on either.

[pop]

This is why I wrote this:

There will be very few users indeed who can properly view your images, let alone in an internet browser, when you use the Adobe RGB colour space. Try using sRGB.

[nico1974]

This is why I wrote this:

 

There will always be limitations with people's hardware set-up and flickr's over aggressive compression jpg algorithm. The issue is not whether Adobe RGB or sRGB is used.

 

All modern internet browsers are actually able to render Adobe RGB as long as the colour space of the monitor and operating system can support it.

 

So as long as people accept those limitations and do not claim that there are "banding" issues with the M10 just because they have come across those limitations and do not understand them, then that is cool with me. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by nico1974

[Lord Lucan]

Nico, I had another look at the last photo, and I also see what POP noted.

The link you provided in post #365 is interesting but, does that mean photos wont be displayed properly until upgraded?

[kaethe]

I cannot emphasize how much I love the m10.  This is Horsetail Falls in Yosemite National Park.  This was my capture of the "Firefall" phenomenon that occurs at the end of February for about two weeks at sunset when conditions are perfect.  I posted details about the natural event in the Photo Forum.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269993-horsetail-falls-firefall-yosemite-national-park/?do=findComment&comment=3226425

 

This was shot with the m10 and an older R 200mm VIII 2.8.  It is a slight crop to remove an annoying tree branch on the right.

kaethe

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[justj]

There will always be limitations with people's hardware set-up and flickr's over aggressive compression jpg algorithm. The issue is not whether Adobe RGB or sRGB is used.

 

All modern internet browsers are actually able to render Adobe RGB as long as the colour space of the monitor and operating system can support it.

 

So as long as people accept those limitations and do not claim that there are "banding" issues with the M10 just because they have come across those limitations and do not understand them, then that is cool with me. 

 

The tiff file you provided did display correctly on my Dell 5K monitor set with sRGB. However, on the Surface pro 4 still shows banding. In theory it shouldn't because you stated it been exported to sRGB.

 

But let's be clear here, I was not criticising anyone of anything here when I mention the banding. I was just wondering why it happened. 

Now we know it's the adobeRGB that causes the problem. 

 

Thanks!

[Steve Spencer]

The tiff file you provided did display correctly on my Dell 5K monitor set with sRGB. However, on the Surface pro 4 still shows banding. In theory it shouldn't because you stated it been exported to sRGB.

 

But let's be clear here, I was not criticising anyone of anything here when I mention the banding. I was just wondering why it happened. 

Now we know it's the adobeRGB that causes the problem. 

 

Thanks!

 

No, he did not export it as sRGB and your desktop seems capable on handling Adobe RBG while your Surface pro 4 cannot. All of that is beside the point, however. The banding in the original shot you commented on was caused by the jpeg compression (implemented by Flikr) and not by adobeRGB. I know that because the banding was obvious on my system when it was posted on Flikr, but when I downloaded Nico's file I saw no banding either on my wide gamut monitor or my sRGB monitor. So just to be clear the banding was caused by the jpeg compression.

[adan]

@kaethe - 55 years ago, in a less ecologically-friendly era, I got to see the man-made "Yosemite Firefall" as a child. Once. Where a real bonfire was pushed over the tip of Glacier Point at dusk.

 

Impressive and exciting to a kid of 7 - but the all-natural one is more beautiful.

[justj]

No, he did not export it as sRGB and your desktop seems capable on handling Adobe RBG while your Surface pro 4 cannot. All of that is beside the point, however. The banding in the original shot you commented on was caused by the jpeg compression (implemented by Flikr) and not by adobeRGB. I know that because the banding was obvious on my system when it was posted on Flikr, but when I downloaded Nico's file I saw no banding either on my wide gamut monitor or my sRGB monitor. So just to be clear the banding was caused by the jpeg compression.

 

If Flickr alone compress that much then everybody's file on flickr will look like that but no, that's not the case.

 

What happened maybe caused by compressed too many times by the shooter.  First compression- shoot in adobeRGB jpg , second compression- covert into sRBG then the third compression- uploaded to Flickr.

 

I shoot RAW, export to sRGB jpg in lightroom then upload to Flickr. Compress only twice  and never had banding problem.

[nico1974]

If Flickr alone compress that much then everybody's file on flickr will look like that but no, that's not the case.

 

What happened maybe caused by compressed too many times by the shooter.  First compression- shoot in adobeRGB jpg , second compression- covert into sRBG then the third compression- uploaded to Flickr.

 

I shoot RAW, export to sRGB jpg in lightroom then upload to Flickr. Compress only twice  and never had banding problem.

 

I could go on forever explaining the limitations of 8 bit compressed JPGs and hardware/monitors that are unable to do display colour at 10bit per channel. 

 

You may not have come across the issue in flickr when you upload your images because the issue only appears with very smooth gradients where the limitation of existing technology is visible as was the case with some of the skies in my image. 

 

All my images were taken as DNGs and were exported as TIFF before being uploaded to flickr - the only compression being perfomed is by flickr compressing the 16bit uncompressed files into 8bit compressed JPG

 

And just to prove the point - the image below is of a smooth gradient uploaded to flickr where posterisation is visible

 

10 bit test ramp by Nicholas T, on Flickr

 

and this is the original file

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-0omMe5P91KQXVyQmtFcWU0cE0

 

If you have a 10bit per channel monitor and the your system set-up correctly you should not see any posterisation in the PSD file

 

And this concludes my lecture on file compression limitations and 8bit vs 16bit theory. Let's focus on seeing some great images from the M10 instead :-)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[justj]

16 bit and web.. say no more