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M10- FW Requests/Bug Reports


digitalfx

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Hard to believe the heat issue if you can shoot 125 sec exposure as did the M240. .....

When exposing one frame for 125 seconds, the camera transfers one frame's worth of information from the sensor through all processors onto the storage card. Recording a movie for the same length of time moves about  (30 * 125 = ) 3750 times the amount of data. 

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They already have on for the M240. Hot shoe connection.

I understand how the hotshoe could provide power, but without a mic port how does it transmit sound information? Wouldn't the camera need some sort of port for sound in? I don't see how that could be done through the hot shoe. 

 

Edit: looking into this further the question is whether the Leica microphone adapter for the M240 hotshoe will work with the M10, if it does then that would add a mic port that can then be used by any microphone. The question is whether the M10 is set up internally to work with that adapter. I am less than sure that it is.

Edited by Steve Spencer
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When exposing one frame for 125 seconds, the camera transfers one frame's worth of information from the sensor through all processors onto the storage card. Recording a movie for the same length of time moves about  (30 * 125 = ) 3750 times the amount of data. 

 

True but then why the restriction of 125 sec on the m240 if it didn't have a heat issue with video. Since both cameras have the same 125 sec restriction at low ISO, and it was explained years ago that this is a heat issue, then, technically the m10 behaves as the m240 in terms of heat so video should be available.

 

FTR, I don't need or want video on the M10. But to have it available for the time when you wish you had a video camera along and could make do with some basic video instead of continuous shoot. But if video doesn't come as a subset of the drive menu, I have my iPhone.

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I have not found any information quickly, but how long can video clips be with with the M(240)? If its the usual 29 minutes (that limit is due to tax regulations), then there is no heat issue with the M(240)- and I cannot imagine the thermodynamical design of the M10 is so bad that it wouldn't allow at least a few minutes of video in a stretch - I doubt quality video is recorded for more than 1 minute in a take. 

 

Peter

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I have not found any information quickly, but how long can video clips be with with the M(240)? If its the usual 29 minutes (that limit is due to tax regulations), then there is no heat issue with the M(240)- and I cannot imagine the thermodynamical design of the M10 is so bad that it wouldn't allow at least a few minutes of video in a stretch - I doubt quality video is recorded for more than 1 minute in a take. 

What would be the point of this? Why include a feature at all if it is going to be crippled? Then all you would hear is a constant stream of complaints and requests to improve it. Better to say the M system is for those who want a purist stills camera, and if you must have video then you will want something else, like the SL, which is designed around the notion of full-featured video.

 

Also, I think you are minimalizing the thermal issues in the M10 design, given the limited space for heat dissipation. Shrinking the camera size makes a difference.

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What would be the point of this? Why include a feature at all if it is going to be crippled?

To be able to record video with the great Leica M lenses. Currently its removed, I would like to have at least limited video, eg. some shorter max. clip length.

 

Then all you would hear is a constant stream of complaints and requests to improve it. Better to say the M system is for those who want a purist stills camera, and if you must have video then you will want something else, like the SL, which is designed around the notion of full-featured video.

Well, there is the question of money. A M10 is already somewhat too expensive for a single camera. Adding an SL would blow any budget. So given that I would pay much for an M10, I think requesting as many capabilities as possible is not entirely immodest. Especially when we are talking about what seems to be a software restriction.

 

Also, I think you are minimalizing the thermal issues in the M10 design, given the limited space for heat dissipation. Shrinking the camera size makes a difference.

And yet it still allows live view. Recording video would produce somewhat more heat than live view though. But overall the M10 for sure produces less heat than the M240 do to the more modern electronics. So, yes, it is possible that it is thermally impossible, yet, I would be surprised if it couldn't be done with a somewhat shorter maximum clip length.

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TLDR;

 

I would like to see three things added to the DNG specification and Leica cameras

1) Support for the more subtle image transformation algorithms needed for cameras such as the Leica M to use the Leica Lenses

2) Encryption for the protection of photojournalists and their work product

3) Integrity checks and digital signatures for photojournalists.

 

Main body

 

From what I understand the M9, M240, M10 and the SL all apply some subtle processing to the RAW files to deal with differences between the way that digital sensors deal with light as opposed to film.

 

From what I gather handling those optical challenges within the mathematical transformations available in the DNG 1.4 specification is impossible. The functions are not quite capable of encoding the mathematical transformations needed to correct for this.

 

I think that it would good for Leica to work with Adobe to enhance DNG so that it could support whatever these transformations are and encode them into the lens profiles rather than doing processing in the camera.

 

---------------

The other big improvement that I think that you should work on with Adobe as you advance the technology in DNG is encryption and integrity. There is a definite need and it could provide a market advantage for the SL. https://freedom.press/news/over-150-filmmakers-and-photojournalists-call-major-camera-manufacturers-build-encryption-their-cameras/

 

Anyway, for your professional cameras like the S and the SL and maybe the M you can satisfy this request very easily.

1) embed gpg in the camera. https://www.gnupg.org You would only need the part that encrypts files.

2) Add a new file format called DNE which is just encrypted DNGs.

3) If there is a valid GPG public key in in the root of the SD card. Use that public key to encrypt the files and allow the user to select DNE as a file format.

4) If that file format is selected you just feed the data through one more step before storing it and that would be to encrypt with the GPG public key before writing it.

5) Play wouldn't work work with encrypted files and so encrypted files are ignored.

 

None of that would require assistance from Adobe or a change in the file format since it would essentially just be a wrapper around the current DNG file format. However, the encrypted files couldn't be imported directly. The photographer would have to copy the files. Decrypt them. Then he could import them. Adobe could readily simplify this workflow in LR by prompting for a decryption key when it is asked to import a DNE file.

 

One advantage of a system like this is that a photo agency, newspaper, or someone in a safe area could generate the public and private key pair and then either put put the public key on the card or have the photographer put it on the card and then the photographer themselves couldn't be forced to turn over the decryption key. They would not have access to the private key needed to decrypt the photos.

 

They could also transmit the encrypted DNE files back over insecure channels without concern because only the person with the private key could decrypt them.

 

The other aspect is integrity and this would require a change to the DNG format. Another problem facing photojournalists is the integrity of DNG files. News organizations really want to know that the photos that they are receiving have not been doctored. Often times they request the RAW images as a form of proof that the image being provided hasn't been altered. The problem with DNG is that since it is descendant of TIFF it is relatively easy to replace the image content of the DNG file with something that has been altered. There is no way to detect this. What you should do is work with Adobe to enhance the file format specification to add integrity. Leica Camera has a certificate issued by a certificate authority. This can be used to generate additional certificates. A new certificate should be generated and given to each camera. Then when the image is captured, the camera's specific certificate is used to sign the image. This involves computing a particular kind of checksum for the image data. That signature can be applied to the image data to prove that it hasn't been altered since the time when it was captured and written to the card.

 

Furthermore, a photographer may want to sign their image to be able to prove that they took it. Having multiple digital signatures authenticating the data in different ways should be part of the DNG spec. On the camera UI side, in much the same way that you could put a public key for encryption in the root of the card, the photographer's signing key can be on the card as well.

 

For additional information about the mathematical process of digital signatures, the standard book covering the topic is Applied Cryptography by Bruce Schneier.

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There's no heat issue when recording video. Full stop. How do I say that with such confidence? Live view.

 

The camera works fine when you're using live view, right? What's going on with the camera when it's doing LV? Oh, right -- it's reading the full contents of the sensor, transforming it, doing some calculations for focus peaking, and shuffling the data off to either the visoflex or the rear display.

 

And when you press the shutter button, it manages to take a wonderful picture regardless of all of the "heat" that's been generated.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Recording video is now a hardware solution that's baked into the Maestro II processor. The same processor in the SL chugs along recording 4K without bursting into flames.

 

They took it away to appease people who hate the fact it can take video.

 

Either using LV can make the camera burst into flames (it doesn't) or you can take video if you wanted to and it was an option.

 

The only technical argument I can buy is the microphone took up too much volume or it's too hard to weather seal the microphone holes. As was pointed out above, that could be solved with a hot-shoe-mounted mic.

Edited by Vec
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Here is a list of enhancements I would like to see in future firmware versions, roughly in order of importance/ease of implementation:

  • Bring back the aperture estimate, at least as a custom exif tag. It is useful.
  • Add a silent (electronic) shutter mode. Even if it is prone to rolling shutter effect, there are plenty situations where this does not matter, but having a silent and vibration-free shutter, especially in live view mode, would be great in many situations.
  • Add a color-filter selection to the B/W mode, make sure it is recorded to the DNG file so that Lightroom picks it up for the B/W conversion.
  • Add an advanced/hidden menu that unlocks nonstandard customizations, like
    • ​deactivation of dark frame subtraction. There are users fully capable of taking and subtracting their own dark frames, and for very long exposures the exposure limit matters less if you don't have to pause for a dark frame for every exposure. And of course:
    • longer maximum exposure times. Yes there will be more noise, but this should be nothing a user who needs it can't handle
    • possibly offer some tweaking of the focus peaking: sensitivity, boldness of the created indicators.
    • Video mode. Not as important as the points above, but a nice-to-have.
  • Create a small app or document the communication protocol, so you can use wifi operations with a PC or Mac. 

 

Peter

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I really think people should think about using different cameras, sometimes.

 

A screwdriver will  not drive a nail.

 

cheers...

 

 

I am surprised, how often I get told here, not to buy a Leica camera. I would have assumed people here would be more supportive of the brand. I also find it not to polite to suggest that I have no clear idea what I am talking about. Of course I also use other cameras. Currently the Olympus E-M1 and I am aware which benefits it has for video recording (my M9 is really bad at it, no surprise). Namely the image stabilization, which allows to take video handheld. But mounted on a tripod, a M should be able to take great video. Actually equally well as the SL, with which the M10 seems to share a lot of components. I also fully agree, that Leica should not make huge trade offs when enabling video on an M. But in this case it very much looks like the trade off is enabling a menu item. That sounds reasonable to me. The absence of video probably won't decide whether I get an M10 or not, but if it were there, I would consider it a bonus.

 

Peter

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I am surprised, how often I get told here, not to buy a Leica camera. I would have assumed people here would be more supportive of the brand. I also find it not to polite to suggest that I have no clear idea what I am talking about. Of course I also use other cameras. Currently the Olympus E-M1 and I am aware which benefits it has for video recording (my M9 is really bad at it, no surprise). Namely the image stabilization, which allows to take video handheld. But mounted on a tripod, a M should be able to take great video. Actually equally well as the SL, with which the M10 seems to share a lot of components. I also fully agree, that Leica should not make huge trade offs when enabling video on an M. But in this case it very much looks like the trade off is enabling a menu item. That sounds reasonable to me. The absence of video probably won't decide whether I get an M10 or not, but if it were there, I would consider it a bonus.

 

Peter

 

There are lots of reasons that the M10 does not shoot video as well as the SL. Let's start with the obvious. The SL is bigger, which allows it to dissipate heat easier. This is very important when shoot video for any length of time. Now let's consider the ports. The SL has an HDMI out port, a mic in port, and a head phone monitoring port. This means the SL can support an external monitor, and external micro phone, and monitor the sound all right out of the box. Now let's talk about some less obvious issues. M lenses serious limit the options for video. The aperture dentist prevent smooth changes of aperture while shooting video and you can't even declick the detents on a M lens. This means you can't change exposure when shooting video without the changes affecting the video quality. This means you get worse video when shooting in any sort of changing light. M lenses are also in appropriate for any sort of follow focus or matte box. They are just too small. Perhaps you could adapt other lenses that do allow better shooting of video? Unfortunately that isn't really an option either. The throat is too small on the M mount. For the SL you can easily mount PL lenses (the industry standard for video) as Leica makes such an adapter for PL lenses for the SL. The bottom line is that the SL allows high level video, but the M10 (and really any M) is never going to allow that. So, I think Leica made a good choice in creating a camera that allows great video, which negates the need to have necessarily limited video on the M10.

Edited by Steve Spencer
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....The camera works fine when you're using live view, right? What's going on with the camera when it's doing LV? Oh, right -- it's reading the full contents of the sensor, transforming it, doing some calculations for focus peaking, and shuffling the data off to either the visoflex or the rear display.....

Wait a minute - do you really mean that I could have eaten all those hearty meals instead of just looking at them and not put on any weight?

 

Seriously, live view demonstrates that there is at least one MO the camera can keep up for any length of time. Do you know for certain that, the resolution and the color depth and the frame rate are the same as when taking the frame or when recording video? Processing and recording something like 3MB per second for any length of time on an SD card requires quite a bit of energy which will be dissipated in the form of heat. 

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It simply must read the full resolution otherwise you would get different results for focus peaking depending on your level of zoom. In other words, focus peaking would be useless unless you were fully zoomed in. Hence, full resolution would have to be read.

 

Bit depth? I can't be certain, but it's reading greater than 8-bits to provide the photo preview you get with the EVF. The characteristic S-curve transfer function is applied (highlight and shadow roll off) and you don't see banding in uniform colored areas. If you simply recorded what the EVF displayed people would be happy and this discussion would die.

 

Finally, recording: when you have something implemented in hardware, as is done with the Maestro II, it takes a surprisingly little amount of power to do video encoding now. We're only looking at 1080 for the M10 (though, in all honesty 4K should be almost as easy) and the number of devices that record 4K video now serves to provide an upper bound on the power dissipation for recording in a modern setting. Take, for instance, the Sony FDR X3000. (Amazing action cam if you're in the market!) With a 4.5 Wh battery, it can record around 50 minutes of 100mbps 4K video. And this is while it's also doing GPS and image stabilization and it's in a plastic enclosure that's fully sealed. It's inconceivable that Leica can't do something similar or better with only 1080 video. (The Sony lasts 125 minutes if it's recording 1080 in case you're curious) It's amazing what you can do with custom hardware!

 

I can see a marketing meeting at Leica debating if the M10 should be allowed to take video... the argument against isn't a technical one, it's one of product differentiation.

 

I don't think the average person was looking to use the M10 to do serious cinematography where you have everything rigged up and are outputting to an external recorder -- 10-bit HDMI in log format. It's for people (reporters?) who need to make a 20-second clip or a quick minute or two interview for some production. No one is arguing for exposing HDMI and stuff.

 

Full disclosure: I have an M10 and don't care it doesn't have video. I'm coming at this from a hardware engineering point of view.

 

-George

Edited by Vec
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I can see a marketing meeting at Leica debating if the M10 should be allowed to take video... the argument against isn't a technical one, it's one of product differentiation.

 

I don't think the average person was looking to use the M10 to do serious cinematography where you have everything rigged up and are outputting to an external recorder -- 10-bit HDMI in log format. It's for people (reporters?) who need to make a 20-second clip or a quick minute or two interview for some production. No one is arguing for exposing HDMI and stuff.

 

Full disclosure: I have an M10 and don't care it doesn't have video. I'm coming at this from a hardware engineering point of view.

 

-George

 

 

Thanks, George. I am working as an engineer myself and like to tinker with things. A M10 with video would give me the excellent sensor and the great lenses, and obviously nothing else. But thats fine, I would love to play with it, and see what I can create with it. It drives me a bit mad, how much people argue that I don't want to do these things :). I would be fine, if there were a semi-secret "service" menu on the camera, so the video (and other options like longer exposures, no dark frame substraction) could be enabled for those who know what these items are good for, and invisible for everyone else. I really don't like the devices I own (especially the very expensive ones) arbitrarily limited by software.

 

Peter

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