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Leica alternative (M10 related)


hollisd

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My Canon dslr kit was robbed from behind the front desk of a Raleigh Airport hotel two years ago. An employee was caught and charged with a felony. It took about a year but I was eventually reimbursed by the hotel's management company for the price I paid new.

 

So I've been looking for a new camera for about a year starting from zero. My first camera was a Canon AE-1 and although I shot Nikon once I've been loyal to Canon. But I don't feel compelled to reinvest in a dslr system so I looked at mirrorless. Sony I immediately ruled out holding their cameras in my hand. Fuji's viewfinder was a turn-off. One day I waltzed into my local camera store and held a Leica. As a graphic designer, I appreciated the aesthetics but the viewfinder was stunning. The solid little lens and sturdy construction has had me in a Leica funk ever since, munching popcorn through 119 pages and counting of the M10 thread. 

 

When the M10 dropped yesterday I struggled to swallow its price. Two thousand is a lot of lettuce for a digital camera body, $4000 is expensive, and $6500 makes me contemplate crime. I've given a lot of thought to this and it would be insane to buy this camera as photography is a hobby and I'm not wealthy. (How much do they make profit per body, anyone have a wild guess?)

 

Which leads to my point which is that the first time I saw an Android phone it screamed iPhone. Google's feedback was literally to make it less obvious. When Apple launches a new phone, the field scurries to copy it.

 

Why isn't anyone offering a full frame digital rangefinder alternative for half the price of Leica M? It doesn't have to be a Leica killer but rather a decent offering from a company like Voigtlander, Epson, Mamiya, or Zeiss to add a true digital rangefinder option to the table.

Edited by hollisd
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Firstly, yes, you are quite correct, photography with a Leica is insane as a hobby and rarely economically justifiable for a pro.

But forget that - we all have to.

 

The market for rangefinders with high quality optical viewfinders is small, and Leica is building on years of experience, patents, loyal customers and clever marketing, so the new entrant costs are high. From time to time one hears of potential competitors (Konost is the latest one), but none seem to get to showing an actual product for sale.

 

If you could design a Leica M entirely as a silicon chip, then there would be any number of competitors. But the clever stuff is in all the rest: optics, mechanical engineering, system integration. That sort of expertise is not readily copyable. It is easier with lenses, and there is quite a bit of competition at high and low prices: Zeiss, Cosina/Voigtlander, MS Optical and others all make lenses in M-mount. But people still value the Leica mechanical and optical quality enough for Leica to charge £5000+ for a lens.

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Not full frame but I agree Fuji is your best bet. XPro2 or one of the X100 series. They have an optical viewfinder and an electronic rangefinder. The files produced are beautiful and I think a lot of people would find it difficult to tell the difference between an XPro2 and 56 1.2 shot and an M240 and Summilux shot. Epson did a rangefinder which some people still like though it is only 6mega pixels (If I remember correctly)

 

What I did was buy a used M9 and Summarit 50mm for less than £3K. I then traded up to a Cron this year. 

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I agree with others, either get an X-Pro2 or an M9. But even if you find a cheap-ish M9 you'd still need to part with a lot of hard earned cash for the lens(es).

 

 (How much do they make profit per body, anyone have a wild guess?)

 

Probably less than you think. These things are made by real highly skilled people. Labour costs are high.

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The X100 series are nice, and I use one as a briefcase carry-around, but it falls down for quick manual focus. Having used manual focus Leica Ms for over 50 years, along side manual focus SLRs for tele and macro, only the M range-viewfinder feels right for my style of photography. The process has equal value to the results, so I'm saving some of my retirement budget towards an M10.

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My Canon dslr kit was robbed from behind the front desk of a Raleigh Airport hotel two years ago. An employee was caught and charged with a felony. It took about a year but I was eventually reimbursed by the hotel's management company for the price I paid new.

 

So I've been looking for a new camera for about a year starting from zero. My first camera was a Canon AE-1 and although I shot Nikon once I've been loyal to Canon. But I don't feel compelled to reinvest in a dslr system so I looked at mirrorless. Sony I immediately ruled out holding their cameras in my hand. Fuji's viewfinder was a turn-off. One day I waltzed into my local camera store and held a Leica. As a graphic designer, I appreciated the aesthetics but the viewfinder was stunning. The solid little lens and sturdy construction has had me in a Leica funk ever since, munching popcorn through 119 pages and counting of the M10 thread. 

 

When the M10 dropped yesterday I struggled to swallow its price. Two thousand is a lot of lettuce for a digital camera body, $4000 is expensive, and $6500 makes me contemplate crime. I've given a lot of thought to this and it would be insane to buy this camera as photography is a hobby and I'm not wealthy. (How much do they make profit per body, anyone have a wild guess?)

 

Which leads to my point which is that the first time I saw an Android phone it screamed iPhone. Google's feedback was literally to make it less obvious. When Apple launches a new phone, the field scurries to copy it.

 

Why isn't anyone offering a full frame digital rangefinder alternative for half the price of Leica M? It doesn't have to be a Leica killer but rather a decent offering from a company like Voigtlander, Epson, Mamiya, or Zeiss to add a true digital rangefinder option to the table.

 

Over the next 3 to 6 months you will be able to get fantastic deals on Leica M240 based camera bodies at substantially lower cost compared to a new M10.

Look at lenses first - we may or may not see an uptick in Leica M mount lenses should the M10 be just nearly as successful as the M9 has been on the market (lens prices are at a very low point currently, especially the expensive exotics).

 

The way you shoot a SLR vs a rangefinder camera is different - you may find out down the road that you tend to prefer wider lenses than what you are used to from your SLR.

Take that into consideration when thinking about which focal lengths you wish to buy.

 

You don't need the latest just announced (and surely not offered at discount) digital M to find out about rangefinder cameras.

A M240 and even the older M9 are fantastic cameras to use - even picking up one of the indestructible Leica film bodies is a great way to start shooting a rangefinder.

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Over the next 3 to 6 months you will be able to get fantastic deals on Leica M240 based camera bodies at substantially lower cost compared to a new M10.

Look at lenses first - we may or may not see an uptick in Leica M mount lenses should the M10 be just nearly as successful as the M9 has been on the market (lens prices are at a very low point currently, especially the expensive exotics).

 

The way you shoot a SLR vs a rangefinder camera is different - you may find out down the road that you tend to prefer wider lenses than what you are used to from your SLR.

Take that into consideration when thinking about which focal lengths you wish to buy.

 

You don't need the latest just announced (and surely not offered at discount) digital M to find out about rangefinder cameras.

A M240 and even the older M9 are fantastic cameras to use - even picking up one of the indestructible Leica film bodies is a great way to start shooting a rangefinder.

To see if I liked rangefinders I got an Olympus 35SP for about £100 and shot Few rolls of film. Loved it and bought an m9

 

www.robertpoolephotography.com

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Just keep your eye on eBay. I've bought several Leica digital bodies (M8.2, M9, two M9-Ps, and my present M-P 240) through eBay making sure to follow the PayPal rules to ensure I'm covered. I've had some real bargains over the years.

 

Send this guy an offer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M240-/332073170801?hash=item4d511a7771:g:MD8AAOSw44BYYRKI

 

or this company

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M-TYP-240-Silver-24MP-Boxed-10771-w-Luigi-M-Mate-M-Baseplate-Bundle-/391665031690?hash=item5b310e1a0a:g:mP0AAOSwUKxYZou3

 

for example.

Pete

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I got the rangefinder habit from an M-2 which has stayed with me during all the years that I shot with it, with a Nikon F, and after I gave the darkroom away.  You can find them in great condition at KEH from time to time or in a local store.  They still cost $500-1000, but in good condition they hold their value forever.  No battery.  No light meter.  Sunny 16 roolz.  It still gets used.  Each kid took it off to a photo class, where one teacher viewed it with horror because she wasn't prepared to teach exposure.  This or a Canonet is probably the cheapest way to try a rangefinder.  Or go straight to an M8.2, which has also probably settled to a stable price.  Film (if you have a tank, a sink, and the chemicals) or the 8.2 will get you to ISO 800, which ought to be enough.

 

scott

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I've given a lot of thought to this and it would be insane to buy this camera as photography is a hobby and I'm not wealthy.

 

Yes, it is insane on coldly rational grounds.

Leica M products should be sold with a warning of inevitable dose escalation and high risk of substance dependence.

There is some excellent equipment available on the second hand market, often at a saving of 40-50% off new and more for older generation stock.

Even getting into a second hand M9 or M240 and one lens would still make an excellent entry into an M system.  I'm not sure whether that suits the budget.

Bewarned.

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I have slowly moved away from Leica and now only have the Leica Q and use the Sony A7rII as my main high IQ and work tool but a while ago I bought the X-Pro 2 as I wanted a camera to compliment my Q  that used a similar set of controls and layout (The Sony just doesn't work in anyway like a Leica) and I must say that is an excellent camera and a mostly a joy to use

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I have slowly moved away from Leica and now only have the Leica Q and use the Sony A7rII as my main high IQ and work tool but a while ago I bought the X-Pro 2 as I wanted a camera to compliment my Q that used a similar set of controls and layout (The Sony just doesn't work in anyway like a Leica) and I must say that is an excellent camera and a mostly a joy to use

I like your attitude!

 

A lot of the people who are keen on the M10 have dismissed some of the criticisms by pointing out that if you want this or that feature, get an SL.

 

I can see the logic. But an M system and an SL with an AF lens or two costs as much as a nice brand-new car whereas a Fuji X-Pro system costs as much as a nice brand new push-bike ( if you add a real bell or whistle) and will do 99% of what the Leica kits will do and then add a few nice touches of its own.

 

We all know that Leica is not for the hard-up. But when you need two of them to do what a normal camera can, isn't something s little bit odd?

 

Actually, I do understand how it works but I'm increasingly uncomfortable with it.

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I have slowly moved away from Leica and now only have the Leica Q and use the Sony A7rII as my main high IQ and work tool but a while ago I bought the X-Pro 2 as I wanted a camera to compliment my Q  that used a similar set of controls and layout (The Sony just doesn't work in anyway like a Leica) and I must say that is an excellent camera and a mostly a joy to use

I like your attitude!

 

A lot of the people who are keen on the M10 have dismissed some of the criticisms by pointing out that if you want this or that feature, get an SL.

 

I can see the logic. But an M system and an SL with an AF lens or two costs as much as a nice brand-new car whereas a Fuji X-Pro system costs as much as a nice brand new push-bike ( if you add a real bell or whistle) and will do 99% of what the Leica kits will do and then add a few nice touches of its own.

 

We all know that Leica is not for the hard-up. But when you need two of them to do what a normal camera can, isn't something s little bit odd?

 

Actually, I do understand how it works but I'm increasingly uncomfortable with it.

 

 

Well said guys.

 

To me I have a great interest in the incoming a7r III. Much more than an SL and I may end up with one now as a necessary tool despite my feelings about the Sony cameras. If I have to use it I will and if it's just a necessary tool I will always take the far better priced option.

Edited by Paul J
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My Canon dslr kit was robbed

 

When the M10 dropped yesterday I struggled to swallow its price. Two thousand is a lot of lettuce for a digital camera body, $4000 is expensive, and $6500 makes me contemplate crime. I've given a lot of thought to this and it would be insane to buy this camera as photography is a hobby and I'm not wealthy. 

 

Most Leica owners are not wealthy. Welcome to the forum.

Edited by Paulus
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Thought I was gonna pull the trigger but didn't like the VF - OVF meh & EVF was cold, sterile - plus I want full frame 

If you are stuck with wanting full frame then your least expensive options for a new camera are the entry level DSLR models made by Canon and Nikon. The Canon model is the 6D. A 6D mark II is expected in 2017 so the original model is available at a discount maybe at an even greater discount shortly. Another option is to look at the second hand market. DSLRs drop in value very fast when new models come out, less so with Leicas. Go back a couple of generations and cameras are only 100s of bux, even pro models - be aware that servicing for these cameras may be non-existent so make sure you can try it before you buy it.

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When it comes down to camera for the money, nothing can beat a nice condition pre-owned DSLR from Canon or Nikon.

 

It is a SLR though and the decision about shooting a SLR or a traditional rangefinder or a modern EVF mirrorless camera should be made entirely independent on the brand or the cost involved first.

 

You need to first determine which system for the photographs you take fits best.

If it is an SLR, go from there and pick the preferred brand, model and kit.

If it is a mirrorless, go and pick any Sony camera.

If it is a rangefinder and must be digital, go get a Leica according to budget.

 

You can find second hand Leica digital bodies anywhere from 1200 USD (1.3x crop sensor M8 beater) over ~2500 USD (M9) to ~3500 (M240) all the way up into stratospheric prices. The more special the model the higher the asking prices.

Add any lens you like from ~50 USD Russian lenses from the 1950's all the way up to collectible gems way into the 10.000's of USD.

A nice useable three lens kit (35, 50, 90) can easily be found around 1200 USD (non Leica) and can be upgraded from there as you see fit over the years.

 

I think  you should find an answer about the SLR vs rangefinder vs mirrorless first and go from there.

 

These two ways to determine that are the easiest:

 

1) rent a kit for a week and see how it feels

 

2) buy a nice condition film kit and resell it after determining if you like it or not (or keep it if you like)

 

The best entry drug into Leica rangefinders for a long time has been a nice user Leica M6 (internal TTL meter, latest loading mechanism, available in three different finder magnifications, all having frame lines for 6 focal lengths 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, 135).

Prices have somewhat increased on these as they became so popular, so a lower initial cost option maybe a nice M2 or M4.

Be careful though with these older cameras, as they do need attention to the mechanics and especially on older M + M3 models finder prisms can fail after so many decades.

Repairs are always possible on these all mechanical cameras but can become costly (a general CLA without parts runs ~150 USD, a full finder over haul after failed prism can be a 300+ USD repair).

 

ALL Leica digital bodies can insure costly repairs should you treat it rough or damage it in any way not responsible by the manufacturer - think sensor replacement ~700 - 1800 USD as a shocking number upfront.

Be aware of that.

 

Should you buy new or even relatively new second hand Leica cameras you can benefit from Leica's famous very generous warranty terms.

There are sometimes (very) long waiting times but on the other hand you will find many (true) stories told here and elsewhere where owners were surprised by the famous Leica customer service.

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