Availability?

[brill64]

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I spoke to one of these three Leica dealers and the guy told me that the 10% non-refundable deposit was a compulsory requirement by Leica. Could this really be true?

i think that a deposit shows Leica a firm commitment with which it can then go on to manufacture a camera. you go on a list, pay a reasonable deposit & that list is sent to Leica. hopefully this way orders are fulfilled more quickly than before & customers are happier.

[satureyes]

Kinda odd that batteries are in short supply. Every camera has to ship with one and surely most users purchase at least one extra, but they are batteries. Not hand crafted batteries.

 

They are Leica batteries (well re-badged Varta batteries) but Leica ones.. Did you expect them to think through the supply and demand?

 

Oddly - I see half cases in stock. At least they realise that if people want to buy one then it makes sense to sell them the official one before third party cases appear properly. 

[satureyes]

I spoke to one of these three Leica dealers and the guy told me that the 10% non-refundable deposit was a compulsory requirement by Leica. Could this really be true?

i think that a deposit shows Leica a firm commitment with which it can then go on to manufacture a camera. you go on a list, pay a reasonable deposit & that list is sent to Leica. hopefully this way orders are fulfilled more quickly than before & customers are happier.

 

I agree but if the deposit is refundable then it seems pointless in asking for a deposit because you can then cancel it and take your camera from somewhere else. 

 

If they said a full payment would ensure the camera within a month I'd pay it. 

[marcg]

Absolutely. 

Perhaps unethical but then if there is no guarantee the customer on the waiting list will actually purchase the kit, I'd take the path of least resistance. 

 

What I find unusual this time is that Leica in Germany seem to want a list of names of people who have put their names down/deposits down for the M10. 

I also find it odd how there's quite a lot of inconsistency with the waiting list situation.. for example..

 

Leica Mayfair (flagship UK store) - waiting list but no deposit needed

Leica City (Satellite Leica UK store) - waiting list but £2000 deposit needed to be on the list

Leica Manchester (dealer) - waiting list 10% (£560) deposit needed

 

I guess Leica's idea is to stop people being on multiple lists but is there someone in Germany checking lists for duplicate names? Seems strange. 

 

I assume Leica Mayfair are happy they will shift the stock even if people cancel their pre-order so don't take a deposit but why would the other smaller Leica store ask for a 2k deposit?

 

I would happily pay in full if it would bump me up the list. I don't see anything unethical about this. The problem is that if it will take months then I'd rather I have my money than someone else holding it for an undefined time. 

 

I wish they just opened pre-orders and then promised a rough delivery date. Like most other retailers do. 

 

Well as it happens, two of these these are amongst the three stores I spoke with this afternoon. They all wanted 10% non-refundable deposits. They all gave me delivery times between four and six months – may be slightly less for silver.

The third store was Red Dot.

Also, they all had batteries in stock. Leica Mayfair told me that they had only just arrived and they weren't yet entered into their computer system.

 

It was one of these three that told me that they had been instructed by Leica to impose the 10% non-refundable deposit.

 

I understand very well why this has been imposed, but on the other hand as the camera seemed to be flying off the shelf and especially as there is no fixed date for supply, it seems very one-sided.

 

It is not at all customer facing because it allows no element of competition. The customer is committed and after that the store doesn't have to do anything and if the supply date is put back, the customer is still committed even if that customer finds a more available camera elsewhere.

 

I find that this is a market abuse.

 

I'm pleased to have found some stores which are not operating the system and obviously, they are the ones who are getting my business.  Not that the three Leica stores will mind because they are profiting from interest-free loans from their customers. A nice little earner. Nice work when you can get it.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by marcg

[}{B]

Were you hoping for a black or silver one?

 

I am hoping it will be less than 2 months for a silver. If Leica are putting in extra shifts to hit demand then the cameras should start trickling out soon. They have to go somewhere!

 

I ordered a black one and as I was told that they were made individually to order I wouldn't expect to offered a silver one. I looked at the silver finish on a 240 at the dealers and didn't like it as much as the 'old' silver finish of the film Leicas. 

[satureyes]

Well as it happens, two of these these are amongst the three stores I spoke with this afternoon. They all wanted 10% non-refundable deposits. They all gave me delivery times between four and six months – may be slightly less for silver.

The third store was Red Dot.

Also, they all had batteries in stock. Leica Mayfair told me that they had only just arrived and they weren't yet entered into their computer system.

 

It was one of these three that told me that they had been instructed by Leica to impose the 10% non-refundable deposit.

 

I understand very well why this has been imposed, but on the other hand as the camera seemed to be flying off the shelf and especially as there is no fixed date for supply, it seems very one-sided.

 

It is not at all customer facing because it allows no element of competition. The customer is committed and after that the store doesn't have to do anything and if the supply date is put back, the customer is still committed even if that customer finds a more available camera elsewhere.

 

I find that this is a market abuse.

 

I'm pleased to have found some stores which are not operating the system and obviously, they are the ones who are getting my business.  Not that the three Leica stores will mind because they are profiting from interest-free loans from their customers. A nice little earner. Nice work when you can get it.

 

 

 

So why did the Leica City store take a £2000 deposit from me- they also insisted this is what they were doing so they won't get messed around with people being on multiple lists. 

 

I would only get from a leica store anyway - because I know them there and I like the service. So I figured if Mayfair got stock first I'd get the call and they'd see I'd already paid £2000. So effectively I'm on the list at 2 places but paid one (large) deposit. 

[marcg]

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I don't know why they took £2000 off you. It seems excessive to me. In fact I think it's really abusive. On the other hand, I hope it means that maybe you get a camera within a week or so. That would justify it.

But the others were "only" asking for 10% and of course it's all non-refundable.

Did you ask the shop at what point they would accept that the delay was unreasonable so that you can have your money back?

Anybody who does fall for this "interest-free loan to Leica" trick should at least ask the question – if you don't get me a camera after X months, do I then get my money back? If they try to say that it is completely open ended, then frankly I would walk away. I would walk away anyway.

[satureyes]

I don't know why they took £2000 off you. It seems excessive to me. In fact I think it's really abusive. On the other hand, I hope it means that maybe you get a camera within a week or so. That would justify it.

 

But the others were "only" asking for 10% and of course it's all non-refundable.

 

Did you ask the shop at what point they would accept that the delay was unreasonable so that you can have your money back?

 

Anybody who does fall for this "interest-free loan to Leica" trick should at least ask the question – if you don't get me a camera after X months, do I then get my money back? If they try to say that it is completely open ended, then frankly I would walk away. I would walk away anyway.

 

Well I am going to buy it from them anyway, I know the money is sitting in their account and not mine BUT it may deter people from multiple lists which in turn would give me a bump up in speed of delivery.

 

It's the same discussions we have every new M release with Leica - I hope they are using the lists and deposit details to crank out more cameras faster. 

[Tobers]

Red Dot is moving nicely along. I'm now #1 from #4 on Monday and #9 on announcement day....seems to be a fairly constant stream of deliveries coming in.

 

Excited 

[satureyes]

Red Dot is moving nicely along. I'm now #1 from #4 on Monday and #9 on announcement day....seems to be a fairly constant stream of deliveries coming in.

 

Excited 

 

I've only been on a list for a week or so. I don't hold much hope this month but we shall see. 

They wont tell me how many are on the list and calling wont help. 

[marcg]

I've only been on a list for a week or so. I don't hold much hope this month but we shall see. 

They wont tell me how many are on the list and calling wont help. 

 

Well I'm sorry to be the person ranting on, on this thread – but if they have taken a non-refundable deposit and won't tell you where you are in the queue – meaning that they don't give you an idea of how long you might have to wait then I think it's even more unfair.

[satureyes]

Well I'm sorry to be the person ranting on, on this thread – but if they have taken a non-refundable deposit and won't tell you where you are in the queue – meaning that they don't give you an idea of how long you might have to wait then I think it's even more unfair.

You have a valid point. I can call Mayfair and ask them why their other store is doing that and see.

 

Not a massive issue because I was going to buy it from them anyway.

[Peter H]

No, there is certainly no mandate from Leica that a deposit be provided to the dealer. Most Leica dealers are happy to put you on their list without one.

 

Your dealer is BS'ing you...

Most dealers in my experience will prioritise people who have paid a deposit. They'll have two lists and when the next delivery comes in they'll first contact the people who have paid a deposit, in the order of when they did so, before getting round to the people who have simply registered an interest without any sort of commitment.

 

This seems reasonable enough to me. Otherwise people will just register with multiple dealers and no one will have any idea of the real State of play, which seems more unfair and less workable.

[satureyes]

So I called Mayfair and had a chat about this. 

Although the stores are Leica UK the City store is much smaller and don't usually carry much M stock, It's mainly compacts etc. They trade separately and therefore the chances are that they want to make sure that if they do get stock it's not going to be there and no one buy it, which seems fair enough to me. 

 

I'm 25th in line at Mayfair but the other store is much less busy so I could well get it sooner. 

 

He also said that they are the main distributor for the UK dealers so proportionally they do get more stock but it's then divvied out to the other stores. I think there is a sizeable waiting list now there. Think he said at least 10 people every couple of hours!

[SiOnara]

Red Dot is moving nicely along. I'm now #1 from #4 on Monday and #9 on announcement day....seems to be a fairly constant stream of deliveries coming in.

 

Excited

 

Nice.

[edw]

I find that this is a market abuse.

Strong words. This is a complicated issue. If there are n dealers and m "sophisticated" buyers who put an order in at each store with either no deposit or a fully refundable deposit, Leica will think it needs to produce n × m cameras to fulfill the backlog of demand, which would be disastrous for Leica. And also disastrous for Leica fans, because they'd end up stuffing the channel and risk putting Leica itself out of business, and perhaps also the dealers. Most of us want Leica dealers to exist. Most of us want Leica to continue to exist. Is this a perfectly efficient market? No. Is there some other way to manage all the competing interests in a way that seems more fair (to you)? Probably. Is this all so egregious that it merits calling shenanigans, er "market abuse?" Eh…

 

Speaking more practically, it's an interesting question, whether it makes sense to get in line at a dealer that requires a non-refundable deposit. I would say "quite possibly," especially if you're not early in line. A lot of people will chose to not pay the non-refundable deposit, and therefore the wait should be shorter. Assuming cameras are fed to dealers in some sort of random-ish manner. Of course if everyone thinks that way, then there will be a problem. To understand the extent that people are willing to pay up front, you'd need some sort of model for who is in line.

[jrp]

The only way is not to pay a deposit (at the expense of rising round every fortnight until you are lucky).  Even if you have paid your 10%, why do you think that your dealer will prefer you (who are committed) to me, coming off the street, a potential extra sale?

 

I've skipped the queue and been jumped myself ("oh, the person for whom this is reserved is on holiday; we'll have another for them by the time s/he gets back.", "oh, they were put into the computer wrongly, but are just press samples that had to be sent back...").

 

I'm not too distressed.  These guys have got to eat too.

[Jager]

Most dealers in my experience will prioritise people who have paid a deposit. They'll have two lists and when the next delivery comes in they'll first contact the people who have paid a deposit, in the order of when they did so, before getting round to the people who have simply registered an interest without any sort of commitment.

 

This seems reasonable enough to me. Otherwise people will just register with multiple dealers and no one will have any idea of the real State of play, which seems more unfair and less workable.

 

I suppose it varies from place to place.  

 

Ever since the announcement of the M8, Leica has had a months-long wait before they could meet initial demand on all their new-generation camera releases.  That's a nice problem to have.  But it's also testament to a fairly niche product with  a very low production output (relative to Nikon and Canon and the other big boys).  The new factory in Wetzlar should help, as should delaying the launch until enough units were built to at least get some in the pipeline.  But how much those things inform the initial, eager demand is something only Leica knows.  And they're not telling.

 

Empirical evidence right here would suggest that they have helped considerably.  Yes, we still have some dealers estimating many month waits.  But we have even more thinking it's a matter of just days or weeks.  Those of us still in the queue have much from which to find encouragement.

 

I doubt very seriously if Leica is looking at dealer pre-order lists to determine how many M10's they should produce.  They have a much better metric to go by - actual units sold.  And, based on prior model launches, I suspect they have a fairly refined picture of how many they will sell, when.  Right now they are in the happiest part of their product cycle... just build as many as you can, knowing you will quickly sell each and every one.

 

The notion of a deposit being required - especially a non-refundable one - is curious.  When I think of all the things that might sway a photographer on the fence to jump off that fence to the "I'm going to do it" side... requiring them to put down a deposit isn't among them.  Frankly, Leica Wetzlar doesn't much care which dealer we buy from - as long as we buy.

 

In any case, none of the three Leica dealers I've dealt with have ever required a deposit.  Nor, to my knowledge, have any of them ever kept two lists, one for the 'serious' buyers who have put some skin in the game; one for the riffraff down in steerage who haven't.  I've asked before, a couple times, intrigued whether such a simple act might bump me up in the queue.

 

A shrug and a shaken head 'no' is all I've ever gotten in return.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Jager

[Peter H]

It may well simply be a symptom of how difficult dealers are finding life.

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[satureyes]

You know what. We love this don't we?

 

All the hypothesising over product pipelines, the anticipation and then 'the call' to say the thing has arrived and wondering how fast we can get to the store to pick it up. 

Then to hand over the money and walk out of the shop and realise you're carrying a bloody expensive carrier bag. 

 

The wait for the battery to charge.. and the first click of the shutter. The customary first frame of the bedroom walls or the cat or kid. 

 

We should make a gallery called 'first frames' of the very first shots we take on our new cameras. Would be fun to see them all. 

 

Some bugger will go and steal that idea and turn it into an art installation.