Availability?

[6bit]

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The issue is Leica seems to hand out cameras to dealers/shops/outlets the same. Three cameras to a Leica shop would go a lot further than three cameras to B&H. At some point Leica will give the big stores a larger share or cause a serious rift. No telling how many lenses B&H sell with the Leica logo on it.

 

What is really weird is knowing Adorama said they had 42 (would have to search back through this thread) cameras ordered but received none. Ouch.

[UliWer]

..

 

But I feel Leica could just keep it simple and not allow other bulk dealers like BHPhoto/Adorama/Tamarkin to even take orders. Then people would have to book M10 with Leica Boutique/store directly.

...

 

Indeed this may be a relevant factor for delays and traditional customers' dissatisfaction with the deliveries.

 

It is obvious that big dealers, who usually do not show much interest for Leica, went on the bandwaggon only, when they learned that the demand for the M10 is big. So they ordered rather late - but in big quantities. Now Leica has to decide: do they neglect those orders, sticking to the Leica Stores - and so perhaps leaving aside many new customers, or do they fulfill those new orders, taking into account the effect, that this causes smaller quantities delivered to other dealers. 

[CJJon]

The way Red Dot did it was very sensible.

 

Now who is having a laugh?

[CJJon]

 

 

Why don't you simply find a dealer that communicates with you.

Mine communicates with me...if yours won't then find another one. 

 

It isn't a problem with finding a dealer who will communicate. The problem is there is nothing to communicate. Leica has been sending orders to dealers randomly. They have no idea when they will arrive or how many they will receive. There is no information to tell. 

 

What does yours tell you? Your place on his list? What else?

[CJJon]

Wow.  Most the children I know are more mature than some that have expressed themselves here.  "I want my M10 now!"  

 

 

 

Absolutely no one has said anything close to this. 

 

Why do you feel it necessary to invent things in your mind in defense of Leica? 

[Yarosuav]

Has anybody taken delivery in the US recently? This thread needs some positive news...

[CJJon]

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Has anybody taken delivery in the US recently? This thread needs some positive news...

Unless they placed the order last week.

 

[Guest )-(]

It isn't a problem with finding a dealer who will communicate. The problem is there is nothing to communicate. Leica has been sending orders to dealers randomly. They have no idea when they will arrive or how many they will receive. There is no information to tell. 

 

What does yours tell you? Your place on his list? What else?

 

That's your assertion but what basis does it have in fact? 

I have a place on a list, my dealer has a date, this is the information I have available to me.

 

I find it hard to imagine that newly produced M10s are dispensed "randomly" from Wetzlar.

But then it is only my imagination, not a fact, I don't assert that they are or aren't.

[Jager]

Leica does not maintain a centralized distribution network.  They don't know how many orders are out there, or how many names are on how many lists.  They for sure don't know that your name is on such-and-such dealer's list and my name is on that dealer's over there.

 

Leica ships product to their major market affiliates.  In the United States, for instance, that's New Jersey.  Leica continues to get marketing input from those affiliates, of course, but they are blind to any specifics.  They don't know to which dealer each camera goes, much less which customer receives it.

 

Shipments from Wetzlar are batched.  (Production is batched, as well, though early in a camera's product cycle it doesn't matter because they'll keep that line hot for many months.  But you'll frequently see this affect lens availability).  Yesterday's production does not ship today.  They wait until they have whatever the magic number is, then they ship.  I presume this is to both streamline carrier costs as well as to ease Customs issues.

 

The affiliate(s) allocate inbound cameras to their regional reps.  It's these regional reps who mostly determine the destination of individual cameras.  Early in a product cycle when demand greatly exceeds supply they have an impossible task... how to equitably distribute the product they receive.  After having keenly watched the M8, M9, and M240 releases (because, in each case, like now with the M10, I was in line for a camera), my very clear sense is that they simply try and spread that distribution as broadly as they can.  Meaning all, or nearly all, dealers get some.  No dealer gets a lot.  

 

There is one exception.  B&H Photo is the largest camera store in the world.  I'm guessing demand from it alone could consume nearly all of Leica's early production output, if Leica allowed it.  Well, they don't.  My sense is that Leica allocates less - far less - to B&H early in the production cycle; and perhaps makes up for it by giving them a bigger percentage, a few months in.  I could be wrong, but I've never heard of any cameras coming from B&H early on.  I suspect Adorama lives in that same big-box bucket.

 

Leica has an estimate, based upon market share, previous model releases, and various other marketing arcana, how many M10 units they will sell across its product cycle.  A substantial percentage of that demand exists right now, immediately after a new model is released.  It typically takes around six months to meet that initial surge.  Product demand then decays slowly until the end of the product cycle.

 

It takes a significant number of labor hours assemble, calibrate, and test each camera.  I've heard ~8 hours enough times to believe that's probably in the ballpark.  Eight labor hours for anything is an astonishing amount of effort.  Cars get built with less than that.  That explains, in large measure, why you pay what you do for that M10.

 

Alas, it also means Leica has very little ability to ramp production.  Yes, the new factory in Wetzlar is bigger.  But that might mean only 15 or 20 additional units per day.  The build-'em-slow-by-hand paradigm remains.

 

So, given all that, what's the upshot?  If you're like me and want one of those early cameras, how do you do that?  Here's my advice...

 

Avoid B&H and the other big-box stores.  They'll have the longest lines and will be getting the fewest cameras.

 

Foster a happy and enduring relationship with - preferably - a local dealer.  One you can drive over to and visit periodically.  Best is a mid-tier dealer.  One who stocks and moves enough Leica product all the time - not just after a product launch - that they are important to that regional Leica rep.  Second best is a high-tier dealer, one of the dealers well-known in the Leica community.  I'd include the various Leica Stores in this category.  The challenge with this group is that they probably get a little more product, but they very quickly will have a much longer line.  Last choice would be those low-tier dealers who are "authorized" by Leica, but don't actually carry much Leica inventory.  They don't get much product.  But hold that thought...

 

Some dealers require a deposit.  Most don't.  I'm averse, on principle, to deposits - even refundable ones - without a date-certain.  Something no dealer can give you.  But that's up to you.  Just know that Leica has nothing to do with that.

 

Also realize that a dealer's list can be somewhat malleable.  They can and do "move people up" for any number of reasons.  They do that at their own risk, of course - I ended my years-long relationship with my former Leica dealer when they did that to me - but otherwise it's something you can't control.  It's one reason a solid relationship can be important.

 

Be early, very early, on the list.  At the end of the day, after you wash everything else away, this is it.  Those new to Leica might think it's nuts to order a camera before it's even announced.  I'm not going to argue that it's not.  But just know that there are many who will.  When the M10 was finally announced in January, my first words to my dealer weren't about that camera... they were about the M10 Monochrom - a camera that, if it appears at all, is probably still two years away.  But presuming it will someday make an appearance... I'm now number one on my dealer's list.

 

If you dither even a little bit, you'll be a ways down the list.  It will take awhile.  It just will.  Don't think days, or weeks.  It'll probably be months.

 

And while you're waiting, Leica won't be updating you on where your camera is.  Neither will your dealer.  Even the official Leica Stores themselves don't know when product is inbound until the manifest arrives.  So fretting over the "poor customer service" and terrible "lack of communication" is a fruitless waste of energy.  The cameras get built on one planet.  And they arrive on another.

 

There is one long-shot, for those stuck well back on the lists.  You know those low-tier dealers?  The ones that are authorized to sell Leica stuff but don't normally carry much - and so Leica folks don't much think about them?  Call 'em.  Call 'em every few days.  

 

You might get lucky.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Jager

[Dirk Mandeville]

That's your assertion but what basis does it have in fact?

It has none. People who are in the dark and unhappy with their experience sometimes like to assume the worst and then state their assumptions as fact.

 

None of us know Leica's internal procedures for camera distribution, but it is laughable to assert that it is random. They are a business and it is reasonable to assume they have a plan for how they distribute new product to their dealers. Just because someone is unhappy with the timeline of deliveries to their personal dealer is no reason to assume Leica doesn't know what they are doing. For all his complaining, I don't recall CJJon answering the question that was asked earlier in the thread as to which dealer he ordered from. Or tell us where he is on the list. If he doesn't know the latter information, then his gripe should be with the dealer and not with Leica. It doesn't really matter that you ordered on the day of announcement. If forty or fifty people ordered before you with the same dealer, then it's going to take awhile to get your camera.

[UliWer]

...

 

Be early, very early, on the list.  At the end of the day, after you wash everything else away, this is it.  

 

...

You might get lucky.

 

Right.

 

Though there is an alternative: Skip the list, wait 9 months or so, when the lists are forgotten, and you find the camera on any  dealer's shelf.

 The camera doesn't get worse when you get it later. As anything new has it's "early bugs" it might even become better.

 

And you might be luckier.

[LeicaFFM]

Even the official Leica Stores themselves don't know when product is inbound until the manifest arrives.

 

 

I would have to disagree. My Leica dealer is usually very well informed and was always able to tell me when my order/repair/etc. would be ready. He would just give Wetzlar a call and find out for me.

[chakyoun]

Does anybody know if I have to pay customs/duties tax when importing a single order of m10 into michigan, US?

Has anybody received leica m10 through aramex?

Is aramex dependable?

Edited March 21, 2017 by chakyoun

[Jager]

I would have to disagree. My Leica dealer is usually very well informed and was always able to tell me when my order/repair/etc. would be ready. He would just give Wetzlar a call and find out for me.

The process for repairs (and a la carte orders) is very different.

[Yarosuav]

Weird nobody seems to be receiving their cameras in the US... It's been radio silence for weeks now...

[krooj]

You know what I'm curious about? If you're living within a reasonable distance to Wetzlar, what are the chances they keep stock in their factory store? I'd also wonder what the VAT% is... 

[Guest]

Does anybody know if I have to pay customs/duties tax when importing a single order of m10 into michigan, US?

Has anybody received leica m10 through aramex?

Is aramex dependable?

 

I don't know aramex, but there is no import duty on still cameras or lenses in the States. UPS charges a $75 fee, but other courier services don't. 

 

_______________

Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[Guest]

You know what I'm curious about? If you're living within a reasonable distance to Wetzlar, what are the chances they keep stock in their factory store? I'd also wonder what the VAT% is... 

 

The VAT in the EU is 20%, but it's refundable if you're taking the camera out of the EU. There is VAT document that the dealer gives you that you take and have stamped by at the VAT tax counter at the airport from which you're leaving the EU — the VAT rebate is then credit to your credit card. There also is a new bar-code system — you put in a machine at the airport, to get the process done automatically. Using the older system the dealer gives you an envelope with a postage stamp in which you mail back the stamped VAT document by putting it into a post box near the VAT counter. It's all simple and reliable.

[krooj]

The VAT in the EU is 20%, but it's refundable if you're taking the camera out of the EU. There is VAT document that the dealer gives you that you take and have stamped by at the VAT tax counter at the airport from which you're leaving the EU — the VAT rebate is then credit to your credit card. There also is a new bar-code system — you put in a machine at the airport, to get the process done automatically. Using the older system the dealer gives you an envelope with a postage stamp in which you mail back the stamped VAT document by putting it into a post box near the VAT counter. It's all simple and reliable.

 

 

Is this true? My only experience with non-marginal VAT is between Canada and the US, wherein you're not going to get it refunded unless you fall into some special category. I'd assume a refund of VAT in the EU comes with the assumption that you're going to be declaring the value of that camera as you enter your destination country.

 

If this is the case and I find myself needing to visit Karlsruhe for work, I might be taking a road trip... 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LeicaFFM]

The process for repairs (and a la carte orders) is very different.

 

Not with my dealer. That's why I also included orders in my reply.