Availability?

[UliWer]

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Other options have been mentioned elsewhere already - though I am sure that they would not please a user who is so eagerly waiting for his new M10:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269150-m10-mm-mk1-and-q/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3222213

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

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.... It isn't rocket science.

Except that some buyers change their minds, others place orders with multiple dealers, and customers who did't know they had to queue still throw tantrums.

[Matti1703]

Does anybody knows if they have some available at the factory shop ?

[ianman]

Does anybody knows if they have some available at the factory shop ?

 

Best way to find out:

Phone: +49 (0)6441 2080 - 0

[ShaunD]

Leica are all about quality and they do provide products that have a quality second to none, as such I am sure the will work to an internationally recognised ISO9000 quality management system (QMS).

 

One of the fundamentals of the ISO QMS is the provision of customer confidence and I quote directly from the ISO organisations own list of bullet points of what the quality system should deliver:-

 

"� customers seeking confidence in an organization's ability to consistently provide products and services conforming to their requirements;"

 

Reading this forum it is quite obvious that Leica are failing in the area of giving customers confidence in consistent delivery of their product (the quality of the product is not in question it is the quality of their service) and this should be addressed.

 

Most customers that have expressed frustration do not expect to have the M10 on the day they placed an order they just expect an idea when they will get it, which is totally reasonable.

 

A literal first come first serve basis would not be fair nor could it work. Just consider this, I am in the UK and ordered mine at 10am on the day of release , 6am in New York time well before any of the shops opened  (I could have ordered at 1 minute past midnight GMT on the 19th online and still been 4 hours ahead of the US) if Leica were to stick to a first come first serve policy then I would have mine before any one in the USA.  

 

Its not easy but I am sure Leica can improve and implement a fair system that works.

[robert blu]

Does anybody knows if they have some available at the factory shop ?

 

 

No, I was in Wetzlar at Leitz Park Shop  two weeks ago and they have a waiting list as well. Of course one demo to test in the shop!

 

Out of curiosity I just read all this thread but personally I find very unreal the idea that a special camera, the unique of its kind should be available to everybody everywhere soon after presentation.

Let's face the reality! By the way I'm on a waiting list as well, only in one place!

 

robert

Edited March 20, 2017 by robert blu

[ShaunD]

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No, I was in Wetzlar at Leitz Park Shop  two weeks ago and they have a waiting list as well. Of course one demo to test in the shop!

 

Out of curiosity I just read all this thread but personally I find very unreal the idea that a special camera, the unique of its kind should be available to everybody everywhere soon after presentation.

Let's face the reality! By the way I'm on a waiting list as well, only in one place!

 

robert

 

I quote from my previous post "Most customers that have expressed frustration do not expect to have the M10 on the day they placed an order they just expect an idea when they will get it, which is totally reasonable."

[UliWer]

Exactly. Place order at dealer, order goes to Leica. Allocated production slot. Buyer gets notice that he has order number xxxxxxxxx scheduled for production say w/c 18 September 2017 and can expect to take possession 2 weeks later. ...

Great idea!

 

I imagine the "Leica Customer's Waitinglist Department" in full display:

 

"Wait there! Where did the last parcel go to? We just got an invoice from Ebayville-under-Stress and I found a customer on the list who ordered 17 hours erlier than the first one on the list from Delivery-by-Privilege. We have to get this parcel back!"

 

"No, are you mad? Look at the median of order dates from Delivery-by-Priviledge! It is 7h 15 min earlier than from Ebayville-under-Stress.

 

Your maths is false! There 9 customers on the list from Ebayville-under-Stress and 7 from Delivery-by Privilege. Just divide the total waiting hours from each list by the numbers of customers on each list. It's no rocketscience, boy!

 

Yeah, I did! Didn't you notice that there are two identical customers on each list, you want to count them twice??? You can only count them on the list where they appeared earlier."

 

"Wrong: you count them on the list where they appered last - they just changed their minds. You have to accept this."

 

"No! First comes first!"

 

"You stubborn bastard, you..."

[Jager]

Wow.  Most the children I know are more mature than some that have expressed themselves here.  "I want my M10 now!"  

 

And Leica... if they only knew there was such a pool of expert CEO's-in-waiting from which to draw!

 

Here's a little secret for those so obviously new to all this... it's always this way.  Every.  Single.  Time.  I know, I know.  It's terrible that Leica allows such a tragic thing to take place.

 

Here's a thought... perhaps, just perhaps... go take some pictures with whatever it was you were using before Leica so irrevocably ruined your photographic world.

[Cliff S]

It's all about supply chain management. What happens when there is no longer a waiting list for the M10. The factory can't shut down until the M11 comes out. Instead, they'll have the new SL2 or Q2 and will continue production on those lines. After the SL2 waiting list goes down, they'll start pumping out M11's.

 

I have the same issue in my business. I finishe a large project after a year or so. I better have another project lined up or I'll be way over staffed. So we need to adjust production to meet a reasonably level staff allocation. Otherwise I will let 30 people go and then when I get a new project, I need to try to rehire. Doesn't work that way.

 

Leica will run product cycles to ensure efficiency and continuous production rather than satisfy eager customers by overloading production and then watching assemblers twiddle their thumbs. This is why the SL and M are offset in their cycle of production.

 

Not to mention that I believe in Germany you need to give employees 1 year notice before letting them go.

 

Smartest move for a customer is to develop a relationship with a dealer and let him know you're interested in a new product. So you're on a 'virtual' waiting list and your order will be fulfilled before all the sudden on line orders from unknown customers.

[Surelythisnameisfree]

Great idea!

 

I imagine the "Leica Customer's Waitinglist Department" in full display:

 

"Wait there! Where did the last parcel go to? We just got an invoice from Ebayville-under-Stress and I found a customer on the list who ordered 17 hours erlier than the first one on the list from Delivery-by-Privilege. We have to get this parcel back!"

 

"No, are you mad? Look at the median of order dates from Delivery-by-Priviledge! It is 7h 15 min earlier than from Ebayville-under-Stress.

 

Your maths is false! There 9 customers on the list from Ebayville-under-Stress and 7 from Delivery-by Privilege. Just divide the total waiting hours from each list by the numbers of customers on each list. It's no rocketscience, boy!

 

Yeah, I did! Didn't you notice that there are two identical customers on each list, you want to count them twice??? You can only count them on the list where they appeared earlier."

 

"Wrong: you count them on the list where they appered last - they just changed their minds. You have to accept this."

 

"No! First comes first!"

 

"You stubborn bastard, you..."

oh come on, I didn't realise Leica was a mom and pop organisation. If that's the case maybe mon and pop can spend 50k out of the $400m profit they made last year on an order management system.

 

As to the other posts, most of the complaints aren't about having to wait, they are about not having any idea how long they will have to wait. There is no reason in this day and age that the latter has to be the case for such expensive purchases and I honestly can't see how anyone can realistically argue against it being a good thing

[digitalfx]

Exactly. Place order at dealer, order goes to Leica. Allocated production slot. 

 

 

Exactly, like all the camera manufactures do huh?

This makes sense for a $100,000 BMW that you custom order to your specs...but a camera? Is this really necessary? 

 

You do realize this would add to the cost of the camera right?

I would rather not pay an added premium, but thats just me.

 

Why don't you simply find a dealer that communicates with you.

Mine communicates with me...if yours won't then find another one. 

[Rambot-M]

I am a first time buyer. I did not know about this overhead that needed planning. Now I know

 

 

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[UliWer]

oh come on, I didn't realise Leica was a mom and pop organisation. If that's the case maybe mon and pop can spend 50k out of the $400m profit they made last year on an order management system.

 

As to the other posts, most of the complaints aren't about having to wait, they are about not having any idea how long they will have to wait. There is no reason in this day and age that the latter has to be the case for such expensive purchases and I honestly can't see how anyone can realistically argue against it being a good thing

When I tell you, you get in on 6/30 - you are happier?

 

If not, just go to your dealer and ask him when he forwarded your order and when he expects the next delivery. If the dealer is honest he will tell you two dates but will add that he cannot guarantee that your camera will come with this next delivery.

 

You can also write in a Forum - if you think that gives you more certainty about your delivery date.   

[Rambot-M]

When I tell you, you get in on 6/30 - you are happier?

 

If not, just go to your dealer and ask him when he forwarded your order and when he expects the next delivery. If the dealer is honest he will tell you two dates but will add that he cannot guarantee that your camera will come with this next delivery.

 

You can also write in a Forum - if you think that gives you more certainty about your delivery date.

I am ok with that. But when I start reading about delivery not being consistent, some people ordering late and getting early, etc. it is frustrating.

 

I also don't understand the logic of booking a camera even before it's released. This logic must be unique to Leica. I booked mine on the day of the release. I made a mistake though. I should have gone with a Leica store instead of Adorama. I am sure I would have got it by now. If Leica can't even fulfill demand from its own stores, it should not allow Adorama/BHPhoto to even take orders.

 

 

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[6bit]

It's all about supply chain management. What happens when there is no longer a waiting list for the M10. The factory can't shut down until the M11 comes out. Instead, they'll have the new SL2 or Q2 and will continue production on those lines. After the SL2 waiting list goes down, they'll start pumping out M11's.

 

I have the same issue in my business. I finishe a large project after a year or so. I better have another project lined up or I'll be way over staffed. So we need to adjust production to meet a reasonably level staff allocation. Otherwise I will let 30 people go and then when I get a new project, I need to try to rehire. Doesn't work that way.

 

Leica will run product cycles to ensure efficiency and continuous production rather than satisfy eager customers by overloading production and then watching assemblers twiddle their thumbs. This is why the SL and M are offset in their cycle of production.

 

Not to mention that I believe in Germany you need to give employees 1 year notice before letting them go.

 

Smartest move for a customer is to develop a relationship with a dealer and let him know you're interested in a new product. So you're on a 'virtual' waiting list and your order will be fulfilled before all the sudden on line orders from unknown customers.

 

I am with you on this because I have the same issue in my business. It really depends if it is a people or tooling issue. We have extra capacity (tooling wise) that allows us to manufacture beyond average demand at a moments notice. We run with the same amount of people. For me it is more about a mixture of people and tooling. If the bottle neck is people for Leica, it is what it is. I suspect that to be the case, otherwise, cameras would be flying out the door. 

 

In other news, we need a sheet bump.

 

https://ethercalc.org/730accjq0n1t

[Tobers]

I also don't understand the logic of booking a camera even before it's released. This logic must be unique to Leica.

You are having a laugh, right? There are many things you can book before released or announced. Cars were talked about above - plenty of prestige cars are pre-ordered before public release. Same thing for watches. Or new MacBooks (I know retailers who had pre-order lists after all the rumours started firming up).

 

The way Red Dot did it was very sensible. Before launch day you could put your name down on a list, no money changing hands. On the day of announcement and for (IIRC) 48 hours afterwards you could confirm your order by dropping a 10% deposit, after playing with their demo in store if you wanted to confirm you like the camera. Or you could drop off the list, none the poorer. Simple.

[digitalfx]

I am ok with that. But when I start reading about delivery not being consistent, some people ordering late and getting early, etc. it is frustrating.

 

I also don't understand the logic of booking a camera even before it's released. This logic must be unique to Leica. I booked mine on the day of the release. I made a mistake though. I should have gone with a Leica store instead of Adorama. I am sure I would have got it by now. If Leica can't even fulfill demand from its own stores, it should not allow Adorama/BHPhoto to even take orders.

 

 

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Delivery being "inconsistent" is a dealer issue. Do you mean a dealer is delivering cameras out of order? Or that some dealers are shipping to people with late orders while other dealers haven't shipped to the earliest orders?

 

Leica's primary delivery method is thru dealers...some of these shops are owned by Leica, but the vast majority are independent shops. If you preordered your camera from any dealer (Leica owned or not), you are dealing with that dealer specifically. If they aren't communicating with you, your beef should be with them. 

 

The best way to order is thru your local dealer...if you don't have one, search out a small dealer that gives you information. If they refuse to tell you how many orders are in front of you, find a dealer that will. This will give you a rough idea of how long you will have to wait. If you are #1...your in luck. If you are #150 you will probably have to wait a long time.

 

Every dealer is different and each have their own wait lists. Some longer and some shorter. If you take some time to call a few, you may find one with a history of receiving regular inventory and a short list.

 

Bottom line is that they can only make so many M10's per day as they are all hand assembled in Germany.  Leica is shipping these world wide to hundreds of dealers...so most dealers are only receiving a handful per month. This can give you a clue as to how long the wait might be, assuming you know your place in line.

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[digitalfx]

I also don't understand the logic of booking a camera even before it's released. This logic must be unique to Leica. 

 

 

Its not logical, nor unique to Leica...Ive ordered many items this way, including several other cameras and drones...not to mention a Tesla.

I ordered a MEVO camera a year in advance...it wasn't worth the wait

Ive ordered digital cinema cameras up to a year prior to shipping...game consoles, the list goes on. Seems to be the new world order sadly

 

Some of us are wired differently and must have it early...its a disease.

[Rambot-M]

Delivery being "inconsistent" is a dealer issue. Do you mean a dealer is delivering cameras out of order? Or that some dealers are shipping to people with late orders while other dealers haven't shipped to the earliest orders?

 

Leica's primary delivery method is thru dealers...some of these shops are owned by Leica, but the vast majority are independent shops. If you preordered your camera from any dealer (Leica owned or not), you are dealing with that dealer specifically. If they aren't communicating with you, your beef should be with them.

 

The best way to order is thru your local dealer...if you don't have one, search out a small dealer that gives you information. If they refuse to tell you how many orders are in front of you, find a dealer that will. This will give you a rough idea of how long you will have to wait. If you are #1...your in luck. If you are #150 you will probably have to wait a long time.

 

Every dealer is different and each have their own wait lists. Some longer and some shorter. If you take some time to call a few, you may find one with a history of receiving regular inventory and a short list.

 

Bottom line is that they can only make so many M10's per day as they are all hand assembled in Germany. Leica is shipping these world wide to hundreds of dealers...so most dealers are only receiving a handful per month. This can give you a clue as to how long the wait might be, assuming you know your place in line.

I learnt this lesson too late for M10. I will make sure to apply this for the next one when that materializes.

 

I don't know who to fault. Is it Adorama or Leica?

 

Whenever I talk to Adorama, they say they have no communication from Leica as to when they intend to fulfill their order. Hence they cannot give me a fulfillment date.

 

This directly points to Leica. But given all the discussion, it's apparent that Leica seems to be doing all it can to deliver as many M10s as possible.

 

But I feel Leica could just keep it simple and not allow other bulk dealers like BHPhoto/Adorama/Tamarkin to even take orders. Then people would have to book M10 with Leica Boutique/store directly.

 

I am sure I would have received my copy by now if this was the case.

 

 

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