Availability?

[skater75]

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B&H rep told me that my M10 Black order which I placed on Jan 18 within a couple hours of announcement most likely be fillled in the first week of March. They're still not yet done with Jan 18 orders.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[roverover]

B&H rep told me that my M10 Black order which I placed on Jan 18 within a couple hours of announcement most likely be fillled in the first week of March. They're still not yet done with Jan 18 orders.

cool news, if you are not already on the chart, you might want to add your info:

 

https://ethercalc.org/730accjq0n1t

[adan]

Just sort of for the record (and if anyone else has better figures, I'd be glad to hear them):

 

Per LeicaRumors' report on an interview with Dr. Kaufmann, Leica was selling just over 100,000 cameras a year as of Oct. 2016. That's 2000 per week. That includes, no doubt, the PanaLeicas (anything with a red dot and a silver box) - I can't imagine Dr. K leaving those out. It also includes the Q, S, SL, T/TL, X, analog M, etc.

 

I hvae no information on how much of that total volume is digital Ms alone, but counting the PanaLeicas in the total, probably no more than 25%, or 500 a week.

 

Coming at it from a different angle, in 2009 (Solms factory), according to a WIRED article, Leica had 35 camera assemblers, each producing one M8/M9 camera every 8 hours - about 150 per week. (Germany doesn't have a 40-hour work-week, and there are lunch breaks, etc.) If we assume the new Wetzlar factory improved that to 50 assemblers at a similar rate, we get maybe 214 digital Ms per week. At full production volume.

 

Given that Leica is now privately-owned, we no longer get annual reports that show sales by global region (Germany, EU, Asia, NA) - but the last of those 10 years ago were trending at: 25% Germany, 20% the rest of the EU, 25% NA, and 30% for Asia/Other.

 

Which e.g. would mean 53 cameras a week into NA, or 212 in Feb. (short month). Probably less than 200 for the US alone.

 

From yet another angle, my regional Leica rep is actually getting 4 M10s in Feb. Times 17 regional reps would mean 68 for the US.

 

Which could mean - my other estimates are off somewhere; or the M10 production is ramping up at 34% of normal; or NA/US is an even smaller percentage of the market than 10 years ago; or that Leica is no longer quite as even-handed in distributing camera among US regions (6-10 go to NY or CA or FL (Leica Stores, B&H, etc.) for every 4 for the Rockies).

Edited February 14, 2017 by adan

[steamboat]

Ordered black B&H January 25. eMail February 9 saying "still backordered".

[FrozenInTime]

The M10 looks like it's been engineered with design for manufacturing in mind - so I expect they can make more M10s per day than M9s or M.240s.

[satureyes]

The M10 looks like it's been engineered with design for manufacturing in mind - so I expect they can make more M10s per day than M9s or M.240s.

Possibly. Although there's a good chance the demand is also higher than it would have been for the M240/M9

[adan]

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Frozen - you may be right. Although "more" is relative in Leica-Land.

 

A confidential source with a confidential source now tells me, M10 production about 60 per day/300 per week. Peak volume.

 

Other informed estimates are still welcome, of course.

[pico]

So, Adan, can we order the M10 from your shop?

.

[Leicauser7]

Seems that the Leica stores are getting them far more quickly than the 3rd party resellers.... for obvious reasons...

Edited February 14, 2017 by Leicauser7

[UliWer]

The M10 looks like it's been engineered with design for manufacturing in mind - so I expect they can make more M10s per day than M9s or M.240s.

I don't see anything on the M10 which looks like being friendly to easy production. The interior components are more cramped together - though for sure we don't see them, so it is better not to assume too much about them. The Iso-wheel is new and has some mechanics and electronics going with it, so I'd assume it takes some more time than other bodies. Even the good old lever for frame selection makes production more complicated. Leica representatives stated frankly that this was the reason to omit it for the M Typ 240.

 

More important than the camera are the new facilities for production. I am not sure if the new plant in Portugal is ready. They produce the complete body. If they have new facilities now one can expect the output per worker is someway higher than before. This is also true for the final production in Wetzlar. The old facilities in Solms were bad to say the least.

 

Having not read new figures about the present staff working for Leica, I am not sure if this makes much difference. Though the number of employees constantly rose during the years since the M9 I am not sure if this is adaequate to the increased numbers of produced cameras. May be I am wrong - one should know the figures, which I don't.

 

Last not least one should take into account that Leica changed its distributing strategy considerably during the last years. The Leica Stores are the backbone of international distribution now. Though the stores themselves don't just sell on a local market, but often internationally selling online. So even if someone - like me - ordered at a prominent local Leica Store, he does not know how many cameras this store sells worldwide.

[adan]

@pico - I quit the shop last year to devote time to the magazine and to eldercare for a parent. But I ordered my M10 there (well, from my rep, but with Englewood as the point of delivery and dealer of record), and so can anyone else.

 

@Uliwer, as you say, the digital Ms are produced as about 5-7 modular semi-assembled components, mostly in Portugal. I think the sensor/sensor mount come from another location. And then there is the external Feinwerke factory which does CNC brass machining, so a top plate may bounce from Wetzlar to Portugal and back again (or maybe Feinwerke only handles the machining for lenses(?)).

 

Anyway, the final hand-assembly of the modules in the Wetzlar (formerly Solms) Leica factory is what takes on the order of 8 hours per camera. Putting the "meat" of the sensor in-between the front and back body modules, checking that positioning and shimming for correct focal plane, adding the top/bottom plates, testing the RF precision and calibrating that as needed on an optical bench, testing everything else.

 

I don't know that the final assembly is a "bottleneck" (the production rate of the modules may be tuned to match) - but it is a fixed door through which only so many cameras can flow in a day.

 

When I was at the store, and the Canon 5D.III came out, it was up to two months before everyone who ordered that finally got theirs. Two cameras a week - but we had 12 orders the first day.

[6bit]

I guess I should not expect to get my M10 before middle of May. Such a bummer. If I had known dealers were so important I would have went through a dealer but this is my first modern Leica and I had no idea.

[Leicauser7]

I don't see anything on the M10 which looks like being friendly to easy production. The interior components are more cramped together - though for sure we don't see them, so it is better not to assume too much about them. The Iso-wheel is new and has some mechanics and electronics going with it, so I'd assume it takes some more time than other bodies. Even the good old lever for frame selection makes production more complicated. Leica representatives stated frankly that this was the reason to omit it for the M Typ 240.

 

More important than the camera are the new facilities for production. I am not sure if the new plant in Portugal is ready. They produce the complete body. If they have new facilities now one can expect the output per worker is someway higher than before. This is also true for the final production in Wetzlar. The old facilities in Solms were bad to say the least.

 

Having not read new figures about the present staff working for Leica, I am not sure if this makes much difference. Though the number of employees constantly rose during the years since the M9 I am not sure if this is adaequate to the increased numbers of produced cameras. May be I am wrong - one should know the figures, which I don't.

 

Last not least one should take into account that Leica changed its distributing strategy considerably during the last years. The Leica Stores are the backbone of international distribution now. Though the stores themselves don't just sell on a local market, but often internationally selling online. So even if someone - like me - ordered at a prominent local Leica Store, he does not know how many cameras this store sells worldwide.

[Leicauser7]

I can't tell you that the Leica stores outside of the us will not ship to the us... so if you are in the us and wish to take advantage of the fact that Leica gear is currently much cheaper in the U.K., and to a lesser degree Europe (on a vat exclusive basis) in USD terms, you need to order from a 3rd party reseller... frankly, given the very substantial savings sort of irrational not to given that the warranty is identical.

[Stonewall Brigade]

Leica is definitely shipping M10s.

In the past 2 weeks I had several opportunities to buy one, but I am waiting for the M10-P. 

You live a bit closer to the factory than do I.

[my997.2]

I can't tell you that the Leica stores outside of the us will not ship to the us... so if you are in the us and wish to take advantage of the fact that Leica gear is currently much cheaper in the U.K., and to a lesser degree Europe (on a vat exclusive basis) in USD terms, you need to order from a 3rd party reseller... frankly, given the very substantial savings sort of irrational not to given that the warranty is identical.

 

I don't know how you deduced that Leica is cheaper in the UK. When I convert 5600 GBP to US$, it's close to $7K vs US price of $6595

[adan]

Did you remember that UK listed prices include a 20% value-added tax - which you may or may not pay, depending?

 

You can't just convert the currencies, you have to know what is included in the price. Just as the U.S. may get 5-7% sales tax added on - depending on how and where you buy.

Edited February 15, 2017 by adan

[UliWer]

.

 

..And then there is the external Feinwerke factory which does CNC brass machining, so a top plate may bounce from Wetzlar to Portugal and back again (or maybe Feinwerke only handles the machining for lenses(?)).

 

....

Yes there is also "Weller Feinwerktechnik" which is formally independant from Leica but belong to the Kaufmann holding, which is also the main proprietor of Leica Camera AG. I don't think they are involved in the production of cameras, their website describes their production of lens mounts for Leica.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[satureyes]

So. To conclude. No one really here knows what's going on and where. It was the same 4 years ago. We can hypothesise whilst we await the cameras but other than guesswork we just have to wait.

Edited February 15, 2017 by satureyes

[my997.2]

Did you remember that UK listed prices include a 20% value-added tax - which you may or may not pay, depending?

 

You can't just convert the currencies, you have to know what is included in the price. Just as the U.S. may get 5-7% sales tax added on - depending on how and where you buy.

 

Very good. Makes sense as I was not evaluating it the right way.