leica1215 Posted January 19, 2017 Share #1 Posted January 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) have anyone compared the IQ with SL? wondering is the M10s new sensor the same or better tuned than SL. I can't read from the spec, please share your thought... thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 Hi leica1215, Take a look here M10 the new maestro II sensor.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Stonewall Brigade Posted January 19, 2017 Share #2 Posted January 19, 2017 I understand the SL and Q have the same sensor, being more updated than my M262's sensor. I called the Leica store today in Washington DC and I was told by someone there the new M10 has yet another sensor that may be superior to the Q (and SL) sensor, because it allows for the very high ISO 50,000 rating for the M10. Regarding color and white balance differences between the Q and M10 sensor and processor, I wish I could read a thorough review of that analysis. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 19, 2017 Share #3 Posted January 19, 2017 The SL and Q sensors are very similar, but not the same. They're from the same sensor family, however. The M10 sensor is new: Jono's report suggests it can achieve about a half stop more ISO compared to the SL and about two stops more ISO than the typ 240 sensor (presuming about the same noise, of course). And of course, Leica has continued tuning color, as they have throughout the M8, M9, M240, SL, and M262 introductions. It is likely that the M10 produces the best color yet. It is important to realize, however, that these differences are relatively subtle, like between the typ 240 and typ 262, or typ 262 and SL. If you work with raw capture, they're easily overshadowed by how you prefer your color balance and saturation to be set. 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted January 19, 2017 Share #4 Posted January 19, 2017 The differences among M10, SL and Q sensors may be related to microlenses and calibration. The base ISO of the M10 is 200, but the SL has 100 as base ISO, so this could explain the (small) differences observed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 19, 2017 Share #5 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) The SL and Q sensors are very similar, but not the same. They're from the same sensor family, however. The M10 sensor is new: Jono's report suggests it can achieve about a half stop more ISO compared to the SL and about two stops more ISO than the typ 240 sensor (presuming about the same noise, of course). And of course, Leica has continued tuning color, as they have throughout the M8, M9, M240, SL, and M262 introductions. It is likely that the M10 produces the best color yet. It is important to realize, however, that these differences are relatively subtle, like between the typ 240 and typ 262, or typ 262 and SL. If you work with raw capture, they're easily overshadowed by how you prefer your color balance and saturation to be set. Having seen the photos in Jono's M10 review it looks to me as though the skin tones in the photos of his little girl are more natural than I'm accustomed to seeing. I've always found the M240 and even SL magenta a little intrusive, not just in my photos, and never come up with a formula that reliably and consistently manages it. Sometimes I just cannot get it quite right in PP at all. This could be one area in which the new sensor is definitively superior to its predecessors, or it could be wishful thinking on my part. Edited January 19, 2017 by Peter H 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted January 19, 2017 Share #6 Posted January 19, 2017 Having seen the photos in Jono's M10 review it looks to me as though the skin tones in the photos of his little girl are more natural than I'm accustomed to seeing. I've always found the M240 and even SL magenta a little intrusive, not just in my photos, and never come up with a formula that reliably and consistently manages it. Sometimes I just cannot get it quite right in PP at all. This could be one area in which the new sensor is definitively superior to its predecessors, or it could be wishful thinking on my part.Not sure how much can be achieved in firmware but wouldn't it be upon Leica to provide "natural colour" fix for M240 and older M digital models? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 19, 2017 Share #7 Posted January 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have high hopes that Leica's emphasis that the new sensor is better optimized for M wide angles will better control edge colors. I've passed on the 240 series and SL as users seem to have more edge issues than the M9, needing corrections in post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 19, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 19, 2017 Please allow my nitpicking: The sensor is not called "Maestro II". This is the processor. The sensor of the M (240), made by CMOSIS was called "Max-Sensor" by Leica. They don't give the new M10 sensor a certain Name - whatever that may mean. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted January 19, 2017 Share #9 Posted January 19, 2017 The differences among M10, SL and Q sensors may be related to microlenses and calibration. The base ISO of the M10 is 200, but the SL has 100 as base ISO, so this could explain the (small) differences observed. Base ISO of the M10 is 100. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 19, 2017 Share #10 Posted January 19, 2017 Erwin Puts says M10 is SL sensor with new NR algorithms. I tend to believe him. But, if ISO6400 is now "clean", which we will see once many people are using the camera, that's a big improvement. One wonders if the older cameras could be updated, but won't be, for obvious reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted January 19, 2017 Share #11 Posted January 19, 2017 Please allow my nitpicking: The sensor is not called "Maestro II". This is the processor. The sensor of the M (240), made by CMOSIS was called "Max-Sensor" by Leica. They don't give the new M10 sensor a certain Name - whatever that may mean. That's hardly nitpicking !! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 19, 2017 Share #12 Posted January 19, 2017 What exactly makes a sensor 'new' rather than a derivative of a previous/existing one ? I'm sure it has plenty in common with the SL/Q sensor ....... but will have been optimised for the peculiarities of M lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 19, 2017 Share #13 Posted January 19, 2017 Erwin Puts says M10 is SL sensor with new NR algorithms. I tend to believe him.But, if ISO6400 is now "clean", which we will see once many people are using the camera, that's a big improvement. One wonders if the older cameras could be updated, but won't be, for obvious reasons. I'm pretty sure that he's wrong about this - Sean Reid also says that the sensor is not related to the SL in his review. Leica are not talking about the source of the sensor, but they are emphasizing that it is a brand new sensor for the M - I'm almost certain that it has nothing to do with the SL / Q sensor at all. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 19, 2017 Share #14 Posted January 19, 2017 What exactly makes a sensor 'new' rather than a derivative of a previous/existing one ? I'm sure it has plenty in common with the SL/Q sensor ....... but will have been optimised for the peculiarities of M lenses. I don't think it has anything at all to do with the SL/Q sensor - not even a common manufacturer . . . 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted January 19, 2017 Share #15 Posted January 19, 2017 A Leica man said yesterday, it is not the SL sensor. It is a special M-Sensor with relations to the S-Sensor. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted January 19, 2017 Share #16 Posted January 19, 2017 Base ISO of the M10 is 100. That's what I think too. Jono, could you confirm this ? Or is ISO100 a 200 "pull" ? Thanks ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 19, 2017 Share #17 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) If Leica's way to give specs is the same as before, 100 ISO is the base, not a "pull" option. If so, is an appreciable step on 240... I have never bought ND filters, but recently happened to me several situations in which I would have liked to have one... Edited January 19, 2017 by luigi bertolotti 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 19, 2017 Share #18 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) I'm pretty sure that he's wrong about this - Sean Reid also says that the sensor is not related to the SL in his review. Leica are not talking about the source of the sensor, but they are emphasizing that it is a brand new sensor for the M - I'm almost certain that it has nothing to do with the SL / Q sensor at all.Andreas reports the same after talking to Leica people at the event in Wetzlar. (Mr. Puts is very often wrong.) Edited January 19, 2017 by UliWer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted January 19, 2017 Share #19 Posted January 19, 2017 Any news regarding the actual manufacturer? CMOSIS/STmicro used specific technology to create the large aperture which made the M240-sensor suitable for M-lenses without using tricks like offset microlenses. 3 years later the SL was still not able to do the same - so we can suspect this technnology is not openly available to many sensor suppliers. There are two scenarios: a) Leica is "ashamed" of the new supplier because it is somehow related to the mass market somebody in the marketing department thinks making suppliers public weakens their own brand position even if it's exclusive (I just experienced this very same behaviour in my job) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 19, 2017 Share #20 Posted January 19, 2017 The "Max"-sensor for the M (240) was designed by Leica. They were proud to report that they have all rights of the sensor design, which would make them independant of producers in in the future. CMOSIS did only build the sensor but was not the designer. So I am surprised that they now are very hush about the new design. They neither speak of their "own" design nor do they tell if there was anybody else involved. Perhaps this non-information policy is caused by different approaches to their different systems. Maybe they want to avoid any discussion about which sensor is better or more advanced: their own one or one bought from third parties. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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