LocalHero1953 Posted January 21, 2017 Share #81 Posted January 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) ........... But I have a predicament because the M10 does not do what I need it to do in one small but seriously major area: hard tether. I have never had much interest in the M240, but obviously I do now given it's usb and part of me feels I have to vote with my wallet for that. But then it's not giving me much more I need at this point ie. 5fps and such better buffer. ........ NB the M240 does not have a direct USB connection, but it gains one with the MF grip Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here Why M240 users will (not) switch to M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted January 21, 2017 Share #82 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) So I finally got a good look at the camera in the store, and though it is certainly a tempting beautiful machine, I do feel that Leica has moved the emphasis to the affectionados/amateur market (which is a good thing for many prospective customesr). Fortunately the M240 is still around as well. For my daily use the M10 would be perfect, but I judge it as a travel camera. And there the 240 reigns. Better battery life, video, better hold with heavy/long lenses, those are things that count. Now I travel with a 2KG long lens combo included and 4 batteries which I really need. With the M10 it might be 6 to 8, depending on the power use by the new EVF. The better RFVF and EVF cannot compensate, and the results out of the camera will be mostly identical. It certainly does look that way with the new emphasis in my mind. Leica wants me to to use the SL - Not going to happen. I don't have an option but to try find a work around and try and push Leica to continue developing the M240 line or extend the M10-P with functionality that this world has evolved with. But a simple continuation of the M-240 won't do for me - it needs developing. Ideally, I need the M10 to have usb and I want to be shooting this in way into the future with sensor improvements as they happen, more resolution etc. Sometimes I am on location for 10 days at a time and there are times when we don't have the luxury of power to charge things. While I can make do with M9 battery life, I do have a silly amount of them and to regress in that department seems a disappointment to me also. I agree - this is a travel camera, it's one of the reasons I choose to use it, so again to take away core functionality is just wrong. Video has it's place moreso in this day and age than anything. I can't even begin to mention how much more useful it is to have in one body, at your finger tips to be ready at the decisive moment rather than a separate system you have to reach for etc. It seems crazy to me to pull this as well - this is 2017 and video is part of every day life and becoming even more so by the day. They talk about returning to the photojournalist fold - this is how they are working today!!! Edited January 21, 2017 by Paul J 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted January 21, 2017 Share #83 Posted January 21, 2017 If money was not a criterion in the ordering of my priorities I would probably switch. I mean, I'm not getting any younger and YOLO. Based entirely on what I've read, as I have never held an M10 much less used one, there is nothing about the M10 I like less than the M240. But money is a criterion, and there is nothing about the M10 I like enough more than the M240 to inspire me to upgrade at this time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 21, 2017 Share #84 Posted January 21, 2017 I think Leica has thought so too 4 years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted January 22, 2017 Share #85 Posted January 22, 2017 They should have stuck video in it..and I probably would have bought...but I'm sure in 1 or 2 more itinerations..they will bring this cam up to spec.. But I'm 60 now..and cant wait forever.. What was Leica thinking..? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted January 23, 2017 Share #86 Posted January 23, 2017 They were thinking how could we bring out a new product out in the market with spending minimum amount of funds on R&D How can we use what is available to us and put something out in the market and squeak by. This is exactly what we got last nights meal reheated in a new plate. Total bull You are referring to M.240 ... M60 ... M-P ... M.246 ... M.262 right ? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 23, 2017 Share #87 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) No I am referring to our new jewel the M10 How on earth is that a 4 year evolution I don't get this, Arthur. What "revolutionary" product were you expecting. Leica has decided that 24MP is where it wants to be, the new sensor has better dynamic range (2 stops over the M(240) if I understand correctly), it has a new processor (what more is it expected to do?) and an upgraded body with video removed. The EVF is just an accessory, and is apparently better than the EVF in the brand new Hasselblad and the Sonys ... It is an evolution of a product which is already reasonably mature. It took Leica almost 20 years to release an M camera with a built in meter ... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share #88 Posted January 23, 2017 I don't get this, Arthur. What "revolutionary" product were you expecting. Leica has decided that 24MP is where it wants to be, the new sensor has better dynamic range (2 stops over the M(240) if I understand correctly), it has a new processor (what more is it expected to do?) and an upgraded body with video removed. The EVF is just an accessory, and is apparently better than the EVF in the brand new Hasselblad and the Sonys ... It is an evolution of a product which is already reasonably mature. It took Leica almost 20 years to release an M camera with a built in meter ... Slight corrections. 2 stop improvement is for clean high ISO. Dynamic range improvement (if any, some doubting any improvement) maybe only 0.5 to max 1 stop. I don't think anyone has tested it yet. DxO is not out yet with M10 sensor measurements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 23, 2017 Share #89 Posted January 23, 2017 Unrealistic. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted January 23, 2017 Share #90 Posted January 23, 2017 Unrealistic. Sorry to say John, your reply in context of Leica may be "realistic" but i think pondering to Leica in 2017 like that is pathetic, digital technology today offers options we couldn't dream of only few years ago. I have heard all excuses several times over how Leica is a small business with limited R&D budget but If we accept incremental improvements and cosmetic tweaks as worth spending our money on we want be getting what we need and want today not several years ago. If selling points of M10 over M240 are thinner body and dedicated ISO dial than we don't get much for our money, performance at base /lower ISO are probably different to distinguish. I am satisfied using my M246 & 240, also very satisfied using current RF but i am not slave to RF philosophy. Reason #1 I use Leica is lenses, cameras are the consequence of that, additionally M246 gives me immense pleasure every time i use it. If tomorrow some other manufacturer, Fuji perhaps, provides digital back that may provide full frame or medium format compatibility with some of R and maybe even some M lenses i would be more interested than in latest M10. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #91 Posted January 23, 2017 Slight corrections. 2 stop improvement is for clean high ISO. Dynamic range improvement (if any, some doubting any improvement) maybe only 0.5 to max 1 stop. I don't think anyone has tested it yet. DxO is not out yet with M10 sensor measurements. Precisely. Again the confusion between exposure latitude and dynamic range - even Sean Reid fell into the trap and got it wrong...Where is Olaf when you need him? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted January 23, 2017 Share #92 Posted January 23, 2017 It's not about the money. If cost is a problem another system may be best for you. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted January 23, 2017 Share #93 Posted January 23, 2017 Time for a Tank quote: There's no such thing as expensive, just bad career choices. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke_Miller Posted January 23, 2017 Share #94 Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) I suspect those who expect Leica to evolve the M cameras to modern designs will continue to be disappointed. For those who follow motorcycling I think a parallel can be drawn with Harley Davidson. Harley, in a quest to create a bike that could compete performance-wise with modern competitors, built in 2002 a beautiful water cooled V-four motorcycle that substantially outperformed its antiquated air cooled V-twin designs. Named the V-Rod, it was soundly rejected by the Harley enthusiasts and will be discontinued this year. It did bring new customers into the Harley Davidson fold, but not enough to keep the V-Rod profitable. Like the Harley air-cooled V-twin motorcycle enthusiasts, I believe the Leica M enthusiasts have a concept of what an M should be and that a substantial deviation from that concept will be rejected. Leica, unlike Harley Davidson, has been successful in creating additional product lines that are both modern and successful. But the M and the V-twin Harleys continue in (essentially) their traditional form. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong Edited January 23, 2017 by Luke_Miller 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share #95 Posted January 23, 2017 I suspect those who expect Leica to evolve the M cameras to modern designs will continue to be disappointed. For those who follow motorcycling I think a parallel can be drawn with Harley Davidson. Harley, in a quest to create a bike that could compete performance-wise with modern competitors, built in 2002 a beautiful water cooled V-four motorcycle that substantially outperformed its antiquated air cooled V-twin designs. Named the V-Rod, it was soundly rejected by the Harley enthusiasts and will be discontinued this year. It did bring new customers into the Harley Davidson fold, but not enough to keep the V-Rod profitable. Like the Harley air-cooled V-twin motorcycle enthusiasts, I believe the Leica M enthusiasts have a concept of what an M should be and that a substantial deviation from that concept will be rejected. Leica, unlike Harley Davidson, has been successful in creating additional product lines that are both modern and successful. But the M and the V-twin Harleys continue in (essentially) their traditional form. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong Nice analogy, and since I love bikes as well, let me give you example of another manufacturer who has taken a slightly different path on evolution vs revolution. Ducati has managed to keep it's signature and slowly embraced modern technology over years. It is more about managing the image and keeping loyal customers satisfied. Most of the time you mainly manage the image. HD does it in much better way but Ducati and Porsche do it too. I think Leica is doing a good job by keeping multiple product lines to keep loyal customers happy at the same time exploring outside marketing opportunities. I wish them well. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAK Posted January 23, 2017 Share #96 Posted January 23, 2017 Take a look at the SL for instance . 9,600.00 CND. for a body 6300.00 for a lens another 8,400.00 for the 2nd lens 1 body 24mm- 280mm range Can you really tell me you are getting 24,300.00 dollars worth of a system is there any advantage , anything truly worth that premium I would love it if someone can show me this Leica has always been an upmarket, expensive item like a luxury car, tailored clothing, Rolex watches, expensive wine etc. I was in Dubai a couple of years ago and saw a Rolex watch encrusted with diamonds for a cool $250,000. Was it worth it? I couldn't afford it but to those who could, it was something beautiful that they would be proud to wear. My cheap watch tells the same time as that one. Such is life. No point complaining about it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 23, 2017 Share #97 Posted January 23, 2017 Take a look at the SL for instance . 9,600.00 CND. for a body 6300.00 for a lens another 8,400.00 for the 2nd lens 1 body 24mm- 280mm range Can you really tell me you are getting 24,300.00 dollars worth of a system is there any advantage , anything truly worth that premium I would love it if someone can show me this Complaining about Leica and the hight of its prices is as old as the ( Leica ) world. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #98 Posted January 23, 2017 Funny thing: in HiFi the price gradient is even steeper and the number of complaints far lower... 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 23, 2017 Share #99 Posted January 23, 2017 Funny thing: in HiFi the price gradient is even steeper and the number of complaints far lower... Maybe because it's more easy to listen to others performing, than it is to perform yourself... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 23, 2017 Share #100 Posted January 23, 2017 If they put in most of what I ask for Above in my post I will pay 10K today Maybe if you stop using a certain kind of tone and ask Leica nicely, they will oblige? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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