Bill Livingston Posted January 21, 2017 Share #61 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Understood but at the sacrifice of what , if we all keep this up the day will come and we will wake up to an announcement, that there there will no longer be a rangefinder in a Leica M mount. Just like all the crying for that dismal 3.5mm , or the extra 50 grams. Sacrificed your battery life. That may happen. But while Leica see a market for an OVF rangefinder and there are enough existing users upgrading and enough new customers entering, then I'm sure it will keep being manufactured. They continue to manufacture film M cameras. The quantities may be low compared to 30 years ago, but it's still here. And you can't really produce an EVF for a film camera... well you could at a pinch but it would be complicated, require a lot of redundancy and be a very stupid thing to do, so I don't see the demise of the OVF rangefinder likely for a VERY long time. Worrying about the end of something because of the entry of something new is understandable, but if that original has a unique benefit, and is still available, then it isn't really being replaced, is it? It's just something new added to the mix. The 3.5mm and the 50g I suspect is mostly from ex film M owners wanting their cameras today to feel like their M4's or whatever from their past. My film cameras were Nikon F2's... and they were huge, especially when fitted with motor drives. My camera case was an aluminium flight case. (Great to stand on to get above the rest of the crowd at an event!) I never had a small M3 or an M4 to feel nostalgic about, so my M240P feels great to me, just as it is. So arguing about 3.5mm body depth has always made me laugh... especially as most of those same people then put a leather half case or a grip on it...! But that's fine. We all have our little peccadilloes! Edited January 21, 2017 by Bill Livingston 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 Hi Bill Livingston, Take a look here Why M240 users will (not) switch to M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Distagon Posted January 21, 2017 Share #62 Posted January 21, 2017 There's an awful lot of "first world" problems being expressed. Yes, indeed! These are the very best sorts of problem to have. Thanks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distagon Posted January 21, 2017 Share #63 Posted January 21, 2017 ...my frustration is with those who come on this platform and bash the Leica M rangefinder, because it is not a ideally suitable,or a relic because there are far better solutions with other brans towards electronic view finders. The rangefinder has clear strengths that everyone here recognises, otherwise they would presumably be somewhere other than the M world. It is not 'bashing' the rangefinder to also acknowledge its well-known, instrinsic limitations. Being interested in a means to extend the M's shooting envelope past those limits does not necessarily mean getting rid of the rangefinder. All the best. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distagon Posted January 21, 2017 Share #64 Posted January 21, 2017 I truly feel the M240 was unjustly judged. Just like the poor M5 ... which I still say is the absolute best film camera ever made. Yes, the M240 is a great camera. The way I see things, the M10 is really just the M240 concept perfected (sans video). The fact that this thread title exists suggests how close the two really are: two increments of excellence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted January 21, 2017 Share #65 Posted January 21, 2017 I think maybe your last point was true. But interestingly, the M240 enjoyed a much better reputation the longer it was on the market. And Leica owners are very slow to embrace change. Unsurprising really. They have made considerable investment in their current camera and need to justify it, even unconsciously. That was very true of M9 owners who were really invested in their cameras. I think the M 240 will be even more well regarded as time goes by... but it seems the M10 has captured the imagination of M users almost from the 'off'... But yes, I see your point. I thought the M5 was an ugly duckling... but it had everything I would have wanted in a film camera at the time. If it was a more conventional looking camera and more of an evolution of the M4, which the M6 was, it would have been much better received. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted January 21, 2017 Share #66 Posted January 21, 2017 I'm in no hurry for the M10 maybe the M10M, but not the M10. One reason is that the GPS still sucks. Another is, the difference between 3200 and 6400 is not enough to tempt me. I have gotten used to the size and weight of the M240 so the slimmer size just means less than before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 21, 2017 Share #67 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) All this remains to be seen , every single review so far are in one way or another are from individuals that in all reality not completely unbiased. Remember they have been commissioned from the mother ship. At this point the term upgrade is a little loose I may say. Let's see how it will fair in the real world. I truly feel the M240 was unjustly judged. Just like the poor M5 ... which I still say is the absolute best film camera ever made. There is no such thing as a "completely unbiased" reviewer. Period. My uncle owned an M5 and I had it to use for a few months, back when it was new. I hated it: big, ugly, squared off lumpy thing. It made my M4 seem petite, smooth, and much nicer in the hand. The CL from that same era was much more to my liking, although it had many quality control problems and really was best with the two lenses designed for it. I think maybe your last point was true. But interestingly, the M240 enjoyed a much better reputation the longer it was on the market. And Leica owners are very slow to embrace change. Unsurprising really. They have made considerable investment in their current camera and need to justify it, even unconsciously. That was very true of M9 owners who were really invested in their cameras. I think the M 240 will be even more well regarded as time goes by... but it seems the M10 has captured the imagination of M users almost from the 'off'... But yes, I see your point. I thought the M5 was an ugly duckling... but it had everything I would have wanted in a film camera at the time. If it was a more conventional looking camera and more of an evolution of the M4, which the M6 was, it would have been much better received. I'm sure it will be. The M5 was bigger and heavier than my Nikon F plain prism. I felt it was ridiculous. Bill are we not almost at the same point of history, look back and see Was the M4-2 an upgrade to the M5 ??? Was the M4p , the m6 ??? Or even the M7... Now here we are is the M10 an upgrade to the 240? No video, no horizon , no battery life, image quality out of sensor is yet to be seen , and if there is it would be so marginal specially at base ISO. so the only part that is a truly upgrade is the use of the ocational clip on EVF. Again I am not saying that the M10 is not a welcome addition to the family, just as the 262 the MD , the Eddition 60. But is it an upgrade? A replacement ? No. The M5 (and CL, and Leicaflex SL2) nearly bankrupted Leica, just as the M4 would have if they'd continued making it the old way. The M4-2 was what M users wanted: an M4 at a more suitable price point. And it was what Leica desperately needed: an M4 that they could produce and sell profitably. The M6 properly realized what Leica wanted to do with the M4 ... build an M that M4 owners would love that had a TTL meter in it, and produce it at a profitable cost. Much improved controls and interface, completely revised viewfinder optics, better sensor (two stops more sensitive than the M240, with a lower base ISO as well), faster internal IO, improved EVF and EVF connection, better weather sealing, 50g lighter, and numerous other minor improvements at the cost of a 30% reduction in battery capacity (almost made up for by circuitry that uses less power, btw) and the lack of video capture. If I had only an M-P 240 and wanted an upgrade, the M10 would be an excellent upgrade for the optical viewfinder alone... "Me thinks thou dost protest too much." Edited January 21, 2017 by ramarren Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share #68 Posted January 21, 2017 Not sure 30% less battery capacity is made up by efficient circuitry. Reviewers are noting proportionally reduced number of shots. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 21, 2017 Share #69 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Ram shut up Only a puts judges a cameras ability by its weight The M5 did not bankrupt Leica it was more like people like you that bankrupted leica I think you need to go away and take a deep breath, then come back when you've grown up a bit. Edited January 21, 2017 by IkarusJohn 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2017 Share #70 Posted January 21, 2017 Reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon: wife in bed, husband at desk with computer, "Just a minute, honey; someone on the internet is wrong." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted January 21, 2017 Share #71 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) This acrimonious conversation is unnecessary. It's just a bloody camera. It is not appropriate to tell someone to shut up, just argue the point. Edited January 21, 2017 by MarkP 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 21, 2017 Share #72 Posted January 21, 2017 Ohhh did I speak against the establishment Ok I'll shut up and play nice No establishment - just play nice! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 21, 2017 Share #73 Posted January 21, 2017 Ram shut up Only a puts judges a cameras ability by its weight The M5 did not bankrupt Leica it was more like people like you that bankrupted leica Mind your manners. Read the forum rules. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 21, 2017 Share #74 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) This reminds me the launch of the M5 a couple decades ago. All Leica users around me had the same feeling. What's that big thing? Same feeling as with the SL601 seen by R4 to R7 or A7 users now. The SL will have more success hopefully but reverting to the M10, i don't know if it is an upgrade or an update to the M240 but it is at least the same filiation. The best RF with a sluggish EVF. Edited January 21, 2017 by lct Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 21, 2017 Share #75 Posted January 21, 2017 I think an upgrade will also depend on what Leica produces in the future.When Leica decides to stop producing the M 240...Will stop produce the M 262 ... When will this happen? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted January 21, 2017 Share #76 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) The M10 pull is strong! I have 3 M9's. I am likely at this point to drop one and pick up an M10 to see how I can use it. The samples I'm starting to see come through are really very good and I think a small notch up from the SL. I can actually really do with the faster frame rate and better buffer too, this has a major influence on my decision. To me it's funny - 5fps seems far less to do with the decisive moment and what the M is about! Dropping important functionality that people have relied on and built a system around, that already exists in the M8, M9 and M240 and then picking up to 5fps and wifi is very strange. I also am upgrading medium format at the moment and I think this gives me good reason to go ahead with that now and maybe wait for the M10-P - this is possibly going to have different functions, and I really hope access to hard tether, or to see if they develop the M240. But I have a predicament because the M10 does not do what I need it to do in one small but seriously major area: hard tether. I have never had much interest in the M240, but obviously I do now given it's usb and part of me feels I have to vote with my wallet for that. But then it's not giving me much more I need at this point ie. 5fps and such better buffer. Part of me wonders if the change in naming protocol has been by design all along and what we see now is a digital M7. What is going to happen next is exciting but I'm certainly worried if nothing wil happen. The temptation is still strong and I may just go with the M10, it will always have a place in my tool box even if limited and may therefore be the last M I will buy. Edited January 21, 2017 by Paul J 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2017 Share #77 Posted January 21, 2017 So I finally got a good look at the camera in the store, and though it is certainly a tempting beautiful machine, I do feel that Leica has moved the emphasis to the affectionados/amateur market (which is a good thing for many prospective customesr). Fortunately the M240 is still around as well. For my daily use the M10 would be perfect, but I judge it as a travel camera. And there the 240 reigns. Better battery life, video, better hold with heavy/long lenses, those are things that count. Now I travel with a 2KG long lens combo included and 4 batteries which I really need. With the M10 it might be 6 to 8, depending on the power use by the new EVF. The better RFVF and EVF cannot compensate, and the results out of the camera will be mostly identical. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 21, 2017 Share #78 Posted January 21, 2017 The reduced battery life is a big negative for me. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted January 21, 2017 Share #79 Posted January 21, 2017 Although with a fast lens the 60 sec max exposure time of the M240 usually allowed adequate exposure with that lens opened up, I miss the 240 sec long exposures of the M9 although at times this was also inadequate. These were used for tripod work in low light where I needed more DOF with a smaller aperture, or where there was very little light, or landscapes where I wanted to smooth out water and stretch out clouds for which the M240's max exposure time is quite inadequate. I was hoping that with the M10 this would be rectified but there is only a one stop advantage over the M240 from 60 to 125 sec. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 21, 2017 Share #80 Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) So I finally got a good look at the camera in the store, and though it is certainly a tempting beautiful machine, I do feel that Leica has moved the emphasis to the affectionados/amateur market (which is a good thing for many prospective customesr). Fortunately the M240 is still around as well. For my daily use the M10 would be perfect, but I judge it as a travel camera. And there the 240 reigns. Better battery life, video, better hold with heavy/long lenses, those are things that count. Now I travel with a 2KG long lens combo included and 4 batteries which I really need. With the M10 it might be 6 to 8, depending on the power use by the new EVF. The better RFVF and EVF cannot compensate, and the results out of the camera will be mostly identical. I was never one of the people who wanted a thinner body, certainly not at the cost of a battery with less capacity, some even thought it was not an option, a thinner body. But in the threads, there were lots of people who wanted it. I hope all the people who asked for it, are happy now and buy the M 10 instantly. I can recall some Nikon bodies and Leica R , who had a snmall battery. At least with them it was possible to put on a motordrive with more battery capacity. Maybe an option with the M 10 ? Edited January 21, 2017 by Paulus Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.