Poor results with filters?? (M246)

[Big_g]

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I have noticed that my keeper rate with the 246 drops dramatically whenever I use a filter. Anyone else notice this?

 

Unfortunately I don't have any examples with me as I am sat in airport departures at the minute and I delete bad shots as a matter of course but using either an ND and or coloured filter on my Noctilux or a coloured filter on my 35 Summicron and the results are less than spectacular. 

 

I use B&W MRC filters which are in perfect condition so I doubt it is the filters. 

 

Just seems rather strange and I wondered if I was alone in noticing this. If I am then I will have to do some more detail testing at the weekend when I am home to see what is happening. 

 

 

[Genn]

I like pictures from my M246 with dark orange filter. Natural contrast is improved 

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[Big_g]

I have dark orange and dark red and can see the difference in contract etc when I use them but I also notice a dramatic drop in my keeper rate when I am using them especially with my summicron. Ordinarily pretty much everything from that is great but add filters and maybe 50%. 

 

I will go out this weekend and pay close attention to the results with and without. I just wondered if anyone had noticed the same phenomenon. 

[mmradman]

I have dark orange and dark red and can see the difference in contract etc when I use them but I also notice a dramatic drop in my keeper rate when I am using them especially with my summicron. Ordinarily pretty much everything from that is great but add filters and maybe 50%. 

 

I will go out this weekend and pay close attention to the results with and without. I just wondered if anyone had noticed the same phenomenon.

 

I have noticed opposite to you observation and probably this is majority view. Can you please explain in what way you see or perceive loss of quality I.e. drop in keeper rate.

[Genn]

Well, let me suggest an explanation.  When we observe an object, illuminated with natural ligth - illuminated side has a yellow cast, and shadow side - blue cast through blue reflected light.  Orange filter makes illuminated side of an object brighter and shadow side - darker.  However subtle variations of tone are suppressed.  It is possible, that you, Big_g, value subtle variations of tone more that simplified shape.  And this is your unique individuality. 

 

ps: You have nice pics on flickr. 

[Jager]

My experience is just the opposite... the Monochrom renders with filters just like B&W film.  Do be aware that stronger filters (e.g. red) can induce some amount of focus shift.  If that's a critical part of your composition, you have to be aware of it.  It's not usually an issue - red filters, for instance, are mostly used for landscapes and the photographer has stopped down considerably.

 

Mostly, it's being intimate with how a filter is going to affect, or not, various tones in your scene.

[pechelman]

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The only thing that really affects my keeper rate when using filters is the slight increase in propensity for there to be flare in the image. 

 

However, I will say that the trend here to use darker filters on the 246 is contrary to my preferences. The B+W 040 Orange is really what I consider a special purpose filter and the effects are very dramatic. They are akin to what I remember of using a red filter on film or perhaps a polarizer. Very noticable.

 

The B+W 022 Yellow was my "all-purpose" filter for quite a while. It has a distinct change in relative contrast but still it acts much more strongly than what I remember a yellow filter acting like on film. To me, it acts more like Orange. (catching a trend now?)

 

Lately, in the past ~3-6 months, I've settled on using the Heliopan Light Yellow #5 filter on the 246. For me, I find this filter is a bit more gentle than the 022 and provides about ~80% of the relative correction of it with about ~half as much light absorption. In some cases, the darker B+W's are nice when wanting to shoot more wide open, however, in terms of final image quality, I feel the lighter Heliopan increases the overall signal getting to the sensor and results in slightly more rich files. I also like the more subtle correction this filter provides and it really behaves nicely. It does remind me more of how a yellow/dark yellow acted on film.

 

Furthermore, there are some rumblings about this Heliopan filter, if you can find the ones with the "Digital" moniker that they include both UV AND IR filtration. I have done some testing with my handful of color filters and a b+w UV/IR Cut, but I've been unable to determine if this filter really does have UV/IR filtration OR (big or) if the M246 is simply less susceptible to IR contamination. Or maybe all of these color filters provide some bandpass cut at the high spectral frequencies, I dont know. 

 

If you're curious about this, there is more discussion about these specific filters over on rangefinderforums. A couple of the guys there also swear by the heliopan and have a significant amount more experience than I using both the 246 (and original m9 mono) with these colored filters.  

 

Not sure if that was what you were looking for, but maybe your poor results are due to too strong a filter?

 

Either way, have fun experimenting. So nice to be able to see results from a filter so quickly

Edited January 19, 2017 by pechelman

[Big_g]

Results tend to be lower contrast from the Nocti with NDs and lower sharpness with the Summicron with coloured filters. I will be back home tonight and hope to do some experiments tomorrow to be more objective. 

[menos I M6]

The focus shift when using strong filters (anything stronger than Yellow) is significant at wide apertures.

You can easily illustrate this effect by using the life view feature with the camera on a tripod and focus target, focussing the lens with the rangefinder.

[geotrupede]

for me filters are quite important, but it is a matter of personal preference and style.

never had an issue with focus or with tones, contrast is something I look for, so filter do help a bit.

some examples here:

https://www.leica-fotopark.com/discover/photographers/546baac30cf267d4ceda6db5/project/XaJc9ZUBQhCwcVZwRNBXtg

 

usually this is the setting:

night time photos = no filter but use flash

daytime with sunlight = orange or red, depending on degree of drama

daytime with clouds = orange or nothing, possibly with flash

bokeh type shots = ND filter as base ISO too high

G.

 

PS original MM

Edited January 21, 2017 by geotrupede

[Big_g]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Much appreciated. 

 

The focus shift may be an issue as I often use filters with the Nocti wide open. Something to look out for. 

 

Weather here has been rubbish all weekend so not been out with the camera yet. Hope to recify that soon ad have a more objective appraisal of the situation. 

 

Its probably just me but clearly I ned to change my technique or something in order to maintain good results. 

[Mark Pope]

I have noticed that my keeper rate with the 246 drops dramatically whenever I use a filter. Anyone else notice this?

 

Unfortunately I don't have any examples with me as I am sat in airport departures at the minute and I delete bad shots as a matter of course but using either an ND and or coloured filter on my Noctilux or a coloured filter on my 35 Summicron and the results are less than spectacular. 

 

I use B&W MRC filters which are in perfect condition so I doubt it is the filters. 

 

Just seems rather strange and I wondered if I was alone in noticing this. If I am then I will have to do some more detail testing at the weekend when I am home to see what is happening.

 

I'm pretty new to the Leica Monochrom, having only had mine just over a week. However, I get the impression that you are deleting shots after viewing them on the LCD screen. If that's the case, then that strikes me as being a little premature. Good as it is, the LCD isn't good enough to make a real judgement on the quality of the files. That can only really be done on a laptop or desktop machine IMHO.

If I do delete files, they are usually very obviously unsharp, poorly exposed or both. Given the number of files that we can store on 16GB or 32GB cards, there is no real need to delete files as space isn't an issue.

[Big_g]

Unfortunately the weather was terrible for shooting this weekend so I didn't manage to get anything done but I had a lot of time to try and think about what was going on and came to the following conclusion.

 

Mark - I almost never delete shots after a review on the rear screen. Only if the exposure is a mile out or the framing didn't work out as planned. I always check the focus on my Mac when I get home as even the much improved screen on the 246 is not good enough for checking critical focus (it is way way better than the M9 screen used to be though!!)

 

With the Noctilux I use the ND so I can shoot wide open in bright light. As the lens has a lot of CA when wide open the high contrast edges can look a lot softer than usual which may explain what I perceive to be lower quality shots. I normally use the EVF when shooting wide open so the focus shift of the strong filters is not an issue.

 

With the Summicron I was using the strong red filter last time I noticed bad results so probably the focus shift mentioned earlier. With the Summicron I never use the EVF so I would not have noticed the focus shift. This would explain the softer shots. 

 

One issue I did manage to flag up this weekend though was that the Summicron is a long way out of calibration on my M240, although strangely not on the 246 which seems rather weird. Anyway, thats another problem to get my head around. The issue is exacerbated by a sticking rangefinder as well so a trip to Wetzlar is looming I think

Edited January 24, 2017 by Big_g

[menos I M6]

 

 

One issue I did manage to flag up this weekend though was that the Summicron is a long way out of calibration on my M240, although strangely not on the 246 which seems rather weird. Anyway, thats another problem to get my head around. The issue is exacerbated by a sticking rangefinder as well so a trip to Wetzlar is looming I think

Both camera bodies should focus identical - one of them is definitely off (which might play into your focus issues).

 

Use the EVF-2 on both bodies, mounted to a tripod and focussing on a fixed focus target (ideally an angled ruler with a piece of contrasty tape to focus on).

Focus through the rangefinder and see through the EVF-2 how the focus actually turns out - use the lenses for this test WITHOUT any filters.

 

You will find which of your lenses deviate from another and which of your two bodies works best with most lenses.

 

Have body / lenses calibrated accordingly.

[Big_g]

We have moved slightly off topic now but yes, I have tested my lenses on both bodies and there is not a lot of correlation between them!. 

 

Nocti is close on both, Summicron is way off on the 240 and almost spot on with the 246, 50 Lux is spot on with both. Seems strange. 

 

Anyway, 240 is heading to Wetzlar sometime in the next few months as the rangefinder is sticking so needs sorting. Will have to wait until I am back in the UK to get it sent off. Will use EVF for the Summicron for now

Edited January 25, 2017 by Big_g

[Ken Abrahams]

I have experienced such reduction of image quality using red filter with 35 Summicron on my CCD MM. I tested the focusing (only optical view finder) with and without filter. I cleaned the filter of smudges that were hard to see and hard to clean off (salty air from beach sunset shots) Seems to be okay now. Using ND and red filter is terrible of the 35 Cron. K  

[dante]

I posted a thread on this topic earlier, but the bottom line is that as you go darker than 040, you're essentially just applying a neutral density filter. 041 orange is where it starts getting hard, 090 and 091 cause big drops in responsiveness to light, and 092 is like an ND1000.

 

I would consider using a Hoya G, Heliopan Yellow 15, or a B+W 023 (they are all essentially the same thing). That's midway between yellow and an 040.

 

Dante

[pico]

It would help to know how the filters fail. Many B&W film users report that their filters fail to deliver. Just one example is when they expect a red filter to darken and increase contrast in the sky, but they see no results when the sky was not blue.

 

Filters for monochrome are all about color contrast.

.

Edited February 2, 2017 by pico

[Big_g]

Been pretty busy with work and things the last couple of weeks so had no time to sit and play with the camera and see what was the real problem. This morning I spent an hour sitting in the conservatory focussing on trees in the garden using rangefinder and live view with and without filters. 

 

I was amazed by the focus shift that the dark orange (040) and red (091) filters induce. Very big difference and this is clearly what I was noticing. Both introduced quite a large amount of back focus. Possibly the greater depth of field when using the summicron makes it less noticeable on general shots.

 

It seems I probably didn't notice this when using my Nocti as I almost always use the EVF for critical focus. 

 

So, now I know I need to either use the EVF or compensate the focus somewhat when using coloured filters. 

 

Seems I learned something new this weekend after over 30 years of shooting. 

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[dkmoore]

On 2/18/2017 at 4:59 AM, Big_g said:

Been pretty busy with work and things the last couple of weeks so had no time to sit and play with the camera and see what was the real problem. This morning I spent an hour sitting in the conservatory focussing on trees in the garden using rangefinder and live view with and without filters. 

 

I was amazed by the focus shift that the dark orange (040) and red (091) filters induce. Very big difference and this is clearly what I was noticing. Both introduced quite a large amount of back focus. Possibly the greater depth of field when using the summicron makes it less noticeable on general shots.

 

It seems I probably didn't notice this when using my Nocti as I almost always use the EVF for critical focus. 

 

So, now I know I need to either use the EVF or compensate the focus somewhat when using coloured filters. 

 

Seems I learned something new this weekend after over 30 years of shooting. 

I know I am responding to a very old thread but I am finding exactly this if shot wide open (50 Lux w/246) with orange or red filters. Yellow filter = no problem with M246 and 50 Lux.