"Leica M10 - Expect Simplicity" (overgaard.dk)

[wlaidlaw]

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Given the greater feature set of the SL, isn't it fair to say that it is more reliant on the buttons to access functions regularly?

Isn't a Leica M is likely to be less menu-dependent?

 

From my experience if you have less buttons and controls, you need to access the menus via the menu button more frequently. I notice this when I use my M240 rather than my SL. Particularly changing personal profiles, if you have that set up on a button on the SL, it is so much easier than going into the Set menu on the M240. I also have drive mode set up as another button (a long press on the lower front button) on the SL. This is great for changing between drive modes and delayed release settings. An M with the customisable and flexible SL button/roller set up/layout would be a brilliant camera for my use. Every user could then set it up to suit their own particular requirements. There is no law saying you would have to use all the buttons but they would be there for those that wished to use them. 

 

For those older folk like me, many of us with Hypermetropia (long sightedness) having data displayed on the viewfinder is great, as being imaged at a virtual 2 metres, it is in focus without having to don reading glasses. When I was in Berlin before Xmas with my M240, it was very cold, so I was well wrapped up to keep warm. It was a total pain to have to delve through multiple layers of clothing to find a pair of reading glasses to read something on the menus. Again the SL viewfinder is excellent in this respect. In fact the only thing I really don't like about the SL is the weight. Having been using a Leica CL film camera with the tiny 40mm Summicron-C over the last couple of months, what a delight it is to use a true lightweight camera. 

 

Wilson

Edited January 16, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[Distagon]

If Thorsten has the Beta for testing, having signed an NDA, I cannot imagine Leica would be overjoyed by this thread. 

Unless Leica marketing are coordinating pre-announcement leaks and teases...

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[wlaidlaw]

Unless Leica marketing are coordinating pre-announcement leaks and teases...

 

I don't think they are that Machiavellian. 

[Distagon]

I don't think they are that Machiavellian. 

 

Come on, they're the marketing department! 

[Peter H]

I'm still unclear why the nomenclature needed to relegate the M240 and her sisters to an ignominy worse that the M5. But it's reassuring that Leica listened to end-users and returned to the Barnack path of simplicity. If this new M indeed sports the SL's sensor, or an updated version thereof, I do hope it doesn't end up the Achilles heal of this greatly anticipated move.

 

Perhaps Edward Karaa or adamdewilde, (former) SL users or Thorsten himself care to illuminate us.

If customers had been prepared to accept Leica's proposition that the M was to be known simply as the "M", and if we had not insisted on calling it the M240 so as to subvert Leica's intention, and had we not squabbled over nomenclature and complained about it at every opportunity, perhaps Leica would have been free to make incremental improvements to the camera whenever they were able, as car manufacturers often do, without having to withhold progress and wait until enough time has passed for there to be so much impatience and frustration they have to announce a new model even if it isn't really very new, with all the unproductive brouhaha that attends it.

 

Your point about the sensor is an important one.

[toyfel]

" ...... new model - no matter how insignificant the update is - will create new interest and more sale ........."

 

Presumably, replacing 'model' with 'camera review/article' in above statement also comes close to the reality of marketing.

[harmen]

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From my experience if you have less buttons and controls, you need to access the menus via the menu button more frequently. I notice this when I use my M240 rather than my SL.

The underlying logic for the 3 remaining buttons seems to be that all three are required to activate truly distinct features on screen: menu, live view, and stored photos. Buttons like set and delete would not be needed to activate a screen function, but be used after the screen is already active. That raises the likelihood of a touch sensitive screen.

[johnbuckley]

Reading this thread as a microcosm of the larger dynamic at work within the Leica user community, some things seems clear:

 

1) Many of us longtime M users who have bought the SL system love what Leica has done with it, and have begun using the SL more and more as our everyday camera,

 

2) For many of us, though, this hasn't made us forget our Ms -- far from it. It has made us cherish our Ms even more for what an M is -- for the essentials, the simplicity, and particularly, its size.

 

3) For those of us who love both our Ms and our SLs, the idea of the M dropping a feature like video in favor of a smaller size is a great trade off -- if we want video, we have the SL. The M is for something else.

 

4) Yet like Wilson, some of us quite like the button preset feature of the SL and S and think it would be great if the new M had that too, because it actually would make it simpler.

 

5) Hoping that the M will have a technology upgrade as great as the transition from the M9 to the M240 is likely not going to happen - not with the M10 or in the future, because Leica is most likely going to try keep the M line simpler and purer, and have the SL line be freer to use new technologies in. Each camera serves a different need. Jaap can keep being an M user, Rammen can be an SL user, and people like me can chose to be both.

 

All in, I am very happy if the SL continues to be the system that evolves in features and whizz bang innovations and the M is upgraded each time simply with a better sensor and other more modest improvements. I am really excited about the new M -- the more so because of the way my photography has split into M + SL variants. Yes, this is a very expensive hobby, but the reality is that there are many core Leica users who can and will purchase both cameras, and importantly, use both cameras, loving the best elements of each.

[Herr Barnack]

I think that you are on the right track here. The next M will be available as a stand alone OVF RF camera for purists or with an add on EVF for those who want to use one for various reasons, long telephotos, non RF lenses via an adaptor, ultra-wide lenses without the need for an additional VF or older lenses with poor or no RF coupling, just to mention a few. Even though the Fuji X-Pro 2 is a lovely camera and I enjoy using mine, the OVF side does not match Leica's. A hybrid VF on the M10 with an OVF of the usual Leica standard would certainly add a considerable amount (probably something in four figures) to the purchase price of the M10. We will know next Thursday how the add on EVF (from the TL) will function on the M10. 

 

William

 

I certainly hope you are right about the OVF coupled rangefinder.  In my view, it would be a monumental mistake for Leica to cast aside the OVF in the M240 successor; OVF is what makes a Leica M camera a breed apart.  The market doesn't need another Sony/Fuji/Panasonic camera.

 

Thorsten says "expect simplicity."  I hope he is right.  Thursday's M camera could get serious about simplicity and forsake the movie making function altogether.  That would be a step in the right direction IMHO. 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Carlos Danger

[ramarren]

I agree a long way. If we look back at the Leica M6, what more was there to do. Yet they came out with the Leica M7 which doesn't have any significant improvement over the best-selling Leica M6.

 

In the digital age the market seem to request new editions. They've been able to withstand for four years (instead of three), and the size and some features might make it a best-seller. But also, many will be happy with the Leica M9 and Leica M 240 (and not to forget the Leica M 262 that has the WB button outside; which is quite good!).

 

They could have gone back to the idea of upgrading the "Leica M" with a M 241 or M240.2 with improved buffer and such, but they decided not to go that way (which actually was the original idea: to improve gradually and not make actually new models).

 

I did a Leica Q video review just last week on my YouTube channel "Magic of Light" and I noticed some people already ask when the next Leica Q will be out. There is no need for a new updated Leica Q, but somehow people expect it and I guess it halters sale on one side,; and a new model - no matter how insignificant the update is - will create new interest and more sale.

 

 

 

 

Well, the M7 moved to a vertically traveling, electronically timed shutter. This produces more consistent and accurate exposures as well as enables aperture priority AE and faster X flash synchronization. I consider those significant improvements on the M6. The only negative parts of that change is that the M7 requires a battery to operate and is slightly taller than the M6TTL. 

 

The 'must have a new model every nine months' issue is in part what marketing in the industry overall has driven the audience to become. Users have been trained to become consumers with constant hype about how much better the 'new and improved' gizmo must be and been led to believe that if a new one that isn't a quantum leap beyond the old one isn't available a year later, the manufacturer is losing the plot. Leica CEO spoke out against this nonsense a couple of times in recent years, saying that Nikon/Canon/Sony/et al were shooting themselves in the foot and pushing the development cycle to ridiculous levels such that nothing can ever be truly developed to its full extent. Making too many new cameras and models in too short a time devalues them all and they're never fully developed with the years of incremental improvements that were the norm in the film era. 

 

To my perspective, the M9 was the beachhead that said Leica could do this, but M the typ 240 was the first M digital that hit the numbers right and solved the problems. They stuffed a bit more stuff in it than was truly necessary but at the time they weren't ready with something that would protect the users' investment into R lenses; the typ 240 was a stop-gap solution for that lack. Releasing the SL, which serves that purpose far and away more proficiently, allows them to 're-simplify' the M back to the typ 262.

[wattsy]

Well, the M7 moved to a vertically traveling, electronically timed shutter.

 

 

Electronically timed, yes, but not vertically travelling. The M7 shutter is the same horizontal cloth shutter that has been in all film M bodies with the same 1/50 sync speed.

Edited January 16, 2017 by wattsy

[Peter H]

I thought the M7 innovation was aperture priority auto exposure want it? Or am I muddled?

[jaapv]

And that DX sensor?

[mca]

My thoughts on the upcoming M:

 

- whether you like him or not, Thorsten seems to have a special relationship with Leica, having special service turnaround times and personalization options for his cameras; 

 

- he has a lot of web attention through his website and now youtube channel, and serves as good marketing for the brand, being loyal and praising all the equipment he uses / tests / reviews, and it is unclear from his articles if he buys his equipment or not;

 

- it seems to me that he plays a part in Leica's marketing strategy and he is web and social media influential (his merit on that);

 

- this also explains the exorbitant prices he charges on workshops and ebooks, which don't seem to go along with his photographic experience or published work as far as I can see;

 

- because of the above, he is probably among the ones who receive equipment for field testing a few months prior to launch dates and I would say he's been using the upcoming M for a few months now and thus speaks on personal experience as well as bound by his NDA agreement;

 

- if this is so, he will launch a user's report shortly after the launch of the new M;

 

 

 

- as for personal expectations on the new model: 

 

-- I don't understand the naming sequence that Leica has pursued, with lots of different M named cameras now (240, 246, 262, etc) which only add to confusion, I would expect them to get back on the historical naming sequence (M +  generation number + letter options for Pro, Monochrom or special editions) but would prefer if they skipped the M10 (which was the M240) and went directly to the M11, leaving a gap for this M240 10th model to fit into, otherwise you'll go from M9 to M10 and skipp one entire generation of cameras;

 

-- I think they will use the same sensor specifications of the SL and Q, even if it is not produced in the same factories, and will probably simplify a little bit from the M240 in terms of added functions, and will return to a thinner body as most users have been asking for since the M9;

 

-- as for the viewfinder, I don't expect them to change the OVF in any substantial way and I would be surprised if they went the Fuji way and incorporated an EVF within the OVF like Fuji has done in the X100 and X-Pro lines, I think they will maintain the EVF option on the hotshoe like the M240 in order to keep the simplicity of the design;

 

-- the added ISO dial on the left top corner is a good move and some kind of dial for exposure compensation would also be welcome, although I don't think they will go ahead with that one just yet because of wanting to keep the design simple and unobtrusive;

 

-- other changes might only be related to buffer sizes, processor speeds, continuous shooting capacities and stuff like that;

 

-- summing up, they will just perfect the M240 with a more mature CMOS sensor, a more sensible sized body and a few less functions, getting back to the expected naming sequence.

 

 

This is what I am expecting and usuallly I am wrong  

[wattsy]

I thought the M7 innovation was aperture priority auto exposure want it? Or am I muddled?

No, that's correct. Also there was auto-DX (as Jaap has already said), a proper on/off switch and a clumsy exposure compensation feature. Aperture priority AE was the key thing.

[ramarren]

Electronically timed, yes, but not vertically travelling. The M7 shutter is the same horizontal cloth shutter that has been in all film M bodies with the same 1/50 sync speed.

 

 

Ah, thank you for the correction! I thought the M7 brought that shutter in, but I see it was the M8. So the electronic timing and aperture priority exposure automation, plus the DX film can reader ... although the latter isn't "significant" in my estimation. (It's a nice convenience if you always use factory loaded film and standard EI settings for film speed.)

[jaapv]

It was not that reliable either...

[JPP1]

not sure if the M10 not having WiFi is something Thorsten knows, or if he is extrapolating that from his assumption that the M10 designation means Leica is pretending the M(240) never happened ...

 

 

Well, I'm sure the M10 has WiFi. That's the reason why there is a FCC filing.

 

And the test report is here: https://fccid.io/document.php?id=3193286

[wlaidlaw]

Well, I'm sure the M10 has WiFi. That's the reason why there is a FCC filing.

 

And the test report is here: https://fccid.io/document.php?id=3193286

 

I see from their photo, the frame change lever is back but with no frames lighting glass on the top cover, LED frames must continue from the M240. In reality I rarely used the frame change lever to do anything other than correct the frames, when they stuck slightly, using a MATE. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ianman]

Well, I'm sure the M10 has WiFi. That's the reason why there is a FCC filing.

 

And the test report is here: https://fccid.io/document.php?id=3193286

 

Not saying you're wrong but since when is an M a "Medium-format digital SLR camera" ?