Leica M 10

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Better than this

 

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[Rick]

The M10 is rumored to have a 0.72x viewfinder. http://leicarumors.com/2016/11/19/the-leica-m10-rumored-have-a-0-72x-viewfinder.aspx/#more-43280

 

Kind mixed on this.  I mainly shoot 28mm and this is going to make it even tougher to see the whole frame depending on how the eye relief is set up.  

 

35 shooters are going to see what it is like to sometimes have to move right and left to see the frame lines.  And, it is going to be a lot harder for glasses wearers to see the frame lines at all.  

 

I know I like the 0.72x viewfinder on my M4 which I usually have the 35mm Summaron 2.8 on it all the time.  It is easier to focus than my M240.  And, I like the extra magnification.  50mm is easier to focus as well.

 

Overall, I guess this is going to be great for the majority of folks because, most generally shoot 35 and 50.  For the aging eye it is going to give some relief too.  And, oddly, I like the viewfinder on the M4 much better than the M.  It could be a good compromise for me as well.

 

Rick

Edited November 19, 2016 by Rick

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[Peter Kilmister]

Rumours, rumours, and yet more rumours! 

 

Fleetwood Mac made the best Rumours. Everything else is probably nonsense.

[Jeff S]

The Leica Rumors site has been very accurate since the M9 days.  They were even put in the unusual position of being offered by Leica to see the Q in advance, which they did before eventually reporting.  They've gotten better over the years by sharing their 'degree of certainty' depending on their source(s). They seem to feel pretty good about the M10, but apparently not yet a definite prediction.

 

Jeff

Edited November 19, 2016 by Jeff S

[luigi bertolotti]

Well... 0,72x vs. 0,68x on M240 isn't a great difference... but thinking well, I could prefer 0,72... but surely wouldn't buy only on this...

[bocaburger]

I was strongly put off by the thickness of the M digital bodies for many years, but after having given up shooting film M's for a while now, I no longer notice it.  Similar to how I was put off by the lack of a frame preview on the M240 but after a while no longer miss it.  At least with me, Leica re-issuing the frame preview, and (if it is true) thinning out the body by increasing the mount protrusion (which does not involve technology development per se and could easily have been done from the get-go with the M8) is not something that would inspire me to upgrade.  Neither would ISO 50K, or an external ISO dial, or an improved EVF.  I'm waiting for Leica to wow me. 

[jrichie]

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I agree with the wow thing.

Personally I would love to see a modernised version of the M range - with EVF, similar touch screen and battery design as the T, with a slimmer enclosure and aesthetics related to those generated by Mr Ive and Newson for the one off M. Totally blow my socks off please Leica.

 

I would say that I am prime M purchaser - love my T, and had an M8 a while ago, but just don't want to invest a lot of money into a camera that has barely changed in aesthetic in a long time.  I can understand heritage, and the quality of the camera construction, and also the joy of the viewfinder, but the M really needs an option that is thoroughly modern.

 

The thing is, I used to love the look of the M but now am quite bored of it, and doesn't seem to go anywhere.  The argument could be said for the new Apple Macbookpro's as they are a simple move forward with a familiar [yet slimmed] appearance - I have one but is purely out of necessity and doesn't bring the same joy as previous versions.

 

We will see what appears in 2017, but I have the money in the bank ready for an M, and based on recent rumours I have seen, the money will stay there or go to another worthy cause, and I will stick with the T [which is without doubt my most favourite thing I own, due to use, looks and performance, and I don't really understand the negativity about it - worth every penny to me, and I stress the 'to me' part]

 

For me, if something does not bring joy and love, it does not get bought.  If it does, then the cost is secondary and I just can't part with the cash with the traditional design and features any more.

[Rick]

I agree with the wow thing.

Personally I would love to see a modernised version of the M range - with EVF, similar touch screen and battery design as the T, with a slimmer enclosure and aesthetics related to those generated by Mr Ive and Newson for the one off M. Totally blow my socks off please Leica.

 

I would say that I am prime M purchaser - love my T, and had an M8 a while ago, but just don't want to invest a lot of money into a camera that has barely changed in aesthetic in a long time.  I can understand heritage, and the quality of the camera construction, and also the joy of the viewfinder, but the M really needs an option that is thoroughly modern.

 

The thing is, I used to love the look of the M but now am quite bored of it, and doesn't seem to go anywhere.  The argument could be said for the new Apple Macbookpro's as they are a simple move forward with a familiar [yet slimmed] appearance - I have one but is purely out of necessity and doesn't bring the same joy as previous versions.

 

We will see what appears in 2017, but I have the money in the bank ready for an M, and based on recent rumours I have seen, the money will stay there or go to another worthy cause, and I will stick with the T [which is without doubt my most favourite thing I own, due to use, looks and performance, and I don't really understand the negativity about it - worth every penny to me, and I stress the 'to me' part]

 

For me, if something does not bring joy and love, it does not get bought.  If it does, then the cost is secondary and I just can't part with the cash with the traditional design and features any more.

 

Maybe, the Hasselblad Lunar would be more to your aesthetic?

 

Rick 

[uhoh7]

I agree Paul.  I am so over the " modern" rendering with blocked up shadows and high contrast.  Particularly with B&W.  But colour too. Garish over-processing, in camera, and afterwards.

I prefer a bit of subtlety.  As much as I love my Fuji cameras...they are like a stick in your eye.

 

I leave all my cameras on "standard" and am usually reasonably happy.

 

all best to you

 

 

Long live HDR, right? 

 

Right now I'm using three sensor generations: M9, A7, and RX1rii. Shooting all RAW as uncompressed as possible. 

 

Sure OOC the M9 has high contrast, and bright color. But the RAWs are quite malleable and shadow recovery is excellent. It's easy to de-saturate in LR if you want to. Those files are superior to the A7 (original with Kolari mod), which really does not make RAWs, but I don't doubt the SL RAWs have much more in there. Now the 42mp 80mp uncompressed RAWs coming out of the RX1rii I'd bet are holding quite a bit more than that SL. I've never seen any files like them. 

 

As to "oversaturated colors", and "jab in the eye" fuji files....compared to the HDR fad, I love them LOL 

 

Dauphin by unoh7, M9 135 Elmarit

 

You know the camera Fuji copied

 

If your goal is to recreate reality: 1) forget BW completely. 2) offer your viewers a stimulant because they are well used to the flat washed tonality of daily light. LOL

 

Seriously, I don't mind HDR if it's subtle and Kodachrome is not the only way, I just have yet to see the SL show it can do better than 240 in the end. I'd welcome any links to change this perception

 

Bottom line is Sony leading the pack with DR and File information with the r2 sensor. The M10 should be right in there if, like nikon, they have to, god forbid, buy the sensors from Sony, and spec the coverglass properly, or find the equal. The RX1rii is as good at 6400 ISO as the M9 is at 800, and though the SL can do 6400 pretty decent it does not seem any better than the far higher resolution r2 sensor, to me. 

 

But I suspect the M10 sensor will end up at roughly 262/SL level, sadly. They are good. But "great"? That's a moving target. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by uhoh7

[sblutter]

Its going to be a long 4 yrs here... which is when M10 used prices will be low enough to turn me away from the still amazing 240.

 

For now, whenever I need to go above iso 2500 I'll use a brilliant accessory:  tripod (and self timer)

 

(I only shoot for 17x22" and above prints)

[Exodies]

Do you use any kind of demobiliser for your subjects, tranquilliser darts, chloroforme, etc?

[bocaburger]

And what would wow you ?

Image stabilization would be nice.  So would an adjustable eyepiece diopter.   Reversion to the ambient-light frame line illumination.  But tbh I'm not sure if any of them, singly or in combo, would be compelling enough for me to throw thousands of dollars into upgrading.  Definitely not until there were demos in ready supply.  The M240 does literally everything I need it to. 

[jack-tucker]

I don't why one would have all too high expectations for the next Leica M. It does not have to be so good that everyone will abonden the existing M9 or M240 (etc.) for it. All these will not be any worse just because a new one will be availiable. I am only using my M-P since about 2 years and am not tired of it. I guess I will not be any soon.

 

I think Leica would rather aim for people who anyway upgrade their system to go for the next Leica, rather any Sony, Fuji and so on. That's why the new Leica will be good enough if it can competit with these other brands, at least for a while. Why should one always run for the newest model? Quite contradictious to Leica's claim to produce longlasting quality cameras, and contradictious to the buyer's demans, who want these quality products.

 

As I am planning to buy a second M Body as a Backup at some point in future, I am excited what the next M will have to offer. But if it would be slightly smaller I would be happy enough. Direct access to ISO control would be not bad and it seems that it will be there. I definitely don't need (or even want) more Pixels on the Sensor. It will just make it more difficult to get reasonably sharp images, photographing hand held, in low light conditions. Who wants that? (Retoric question, no need to respond to that...

 

I know that may want an EVF. But after trying out the SL once, and using a friends A7II I can say this is not for me and I do not want to look at a screen while I take pictures. I have to do this enough while editing and postprocessing. That's more than enough. And if Fujis Hybrid VF would be as convinient to be used with manual focus, I would probably go for that. But so far, the best way to focus M-Lenses (exept using EVF) is the Rangefinder.

 

Best regards,

Edited November 20, 2016 by jack-tucker

[Morry]

There are group of people who want to use excellent M lenses at the highest digital standards, and the other who want to use M camera just as it used to be except it is equipped with image sensor instead of film.

 

I am taking that Leica's experiment with M240 to fulfill the needs of both groups by one camera has failed, to let them make M262 come alive.

 

Curious which way the next M camera will go but as long as it keeps traditional RF style, it is quit hard to believe such camera will ever be digitally fully equipped.

 

"Fully equipped" typically means Sony a7Rii... or it can be SL. The problem with SL in this case is that it is too huge probably for many M users.

[helged]

Whereas the digital M-bodies can be handheld for hours when the smaller-to-normal sized M-lenses are attached, I would rather say that the digital M-bodies are on the smallish (thinnish) side when the more heavy 50Noct, some of the Luxes, 90Cron, etc. are mounted. Yes, you can add grips etc. to improve the hand-holding of the M. But in this case you have pretty much the weight/size of the SL, albeit without the great versatility, flexibility and speed of the latter. I follow the M10-rumours with interest, but smaller size is not the decisive buying argument for me (higher ISO, improved DR, improved EVF, the actual RF, the shutter, a sensor with weak-to-absent edge and corner smearing are higher on my priority list).

[John Black]

Whereas the digital M-bodies can be handheld for hours when the smaller-to-normal sized M-lenses are attached, I would rather say that the digital M-bodies are on the smallish (thinnish) side when the more heavy 50Noct, some of the Luxes, 90Cron, etc. are mounted. Yes, you can add grips etc. to improve the hand-holding of the M. But in this case you have pretty much the weight/size of the SL, albeit without the great versatility, flexibility and speed of the latter. I follow the M10-rumours with interest, but smaller size is not the decisive buying argument for me (higher ISO, improved DR, improved EVF, the actual RF, the shutter, a sensor with weak-to-absent edge and corner smearing are higher on my priority list).

 

 

A Thumbs-Up helps immensely with larger lenses, but it does create the hassle of taking off the Thumbs Up to use the EVF.  I've been using Thumbs-Up's since the M8 days, so shooting a M without a Thumbs-Up feels awkward.  As nice as a Thumbs Up, it still can't quite conquer this

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by John Black

[james.liam]

Rumours, rumours, and yet more rumours! 

 

Fleetwood Mac made the best Rumours. Everything else is probably nonsense.

 

 

Well, I extracted the FCC product ID number from the images on the Leica Rumors site and there's a real listing for some device, with the critical items like the manual and pictures of the item available publicly on 11 May 2017:

 

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Sum&calledFromFrame=N&RequestTimeout=500&application_id=T1kYNRM%2FI12sZsD7O65n%2FA%3D%3D&fcc_id=N5A3656

 

 

FCC.tiff

Edited November 21, 2016 by james.liam

[helged]

A Thumbs-Up helps immensely with larger lenses, but it does create the hassle of taking off the Thumbs Up to use the EVF.  I've been using Thumbs-Up's since the M8 days, so shooting a M without a Thumbs-Up feels awkward.  As nice as a Thumbs Up, it still can't quite conquer this

 

 

 

Exactly; I prefer added support without blocking the hot shoe. I used the Thumbie on M9 and MM1, not for the use of an EVF on these bodies   , but since I used wide angle lenses on a regular basis. The Thumbie worked very well. I also tried the Thumbie on the M240 and MM2, but I was unable to keep it fixed during continuous shooting. Half case give additional support, the same is of course the case with a grip. Although somewhat awkward in the beginning, I soon found the SL providing a nice balance between size, weight and ergometrics for most of the lenses I use. This does not imply that I want the M10 to share the body of the SL ... but that a slimmer M-body is not at top of my priority list.

 

(Telling illustration, by the way...).

Edited November 21, 2016 by helged

[jaapv]

I have discovered that the grip provided by add-ons like the Thumbs-up, Thumbie or half-cases, etc. is rather eclipsed by the Joby Ultrafit handstrap+Leicatime baseplate. It welds the camera to the hand and, as a bonus, provides a permanent Arca-Swiss plate.  (See my Avatar as well)

Finding this combo was prompted by the handling of the DMR.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[FrozenInTime]

As nice as a Thumbs Up, it still can't quite conquer this

 

There has always been a point at which the gadgets need to make a rangefinder useful, e.g. macro accessories and Visoflex, result in deminishing returns.

In modern times video on arangefinder might be another example.

The pure play EVF or DSLR camera does not need to be as discrete or small as the rangefinder so let's not lumber up the rangefinder with the do everything specification bloat.