Show us some Mandler Magic

[lct]

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So we seem to agree about the 21/2.8 asph. It is not a Mandler lens definitely, right?

About the pre-asph 21/2.8, i have no experience with this lens and i can't swear if the wiki is right or wrong. All i can say is the lens is reported as being a Mandler design in the links below. Those interested may wish to ask our colleague Andy Piper (adan) who owns this lens IINW.

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00G/00GLuV-29878084.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mandler

 

 

[ianman]

So we seem to agree about the 21/2.8 asph. It is not a Mandler lens definitely, right?

haha, I have no idea, about either of them. JMF and I just tried to explain to you the discrepancy between your statement and the wiki 

I don't know who is correct. 

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[Guest JMF]

The 21 pre asph  Elmarit was apparently designed under Mandler's supervision:

 

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Leica_M_21mm_2,8/00_pag.htm

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45272-in-praise-of-the-mandler-lenses/

 

Let's share some photos :-)

 

21 Elmarit pre asph e60 on Leica CL with triX:

 

low tide games by JM__, on Flickr

 

A day at the beach by JM__, on Flickr

 

More Tri-X

 

Girona by JM__, on Flickr

 

on the M8:

 

Praia do Forte, Bahia by JM__, on Flickr

 

Watchman, Goregaon, Mumbai by JM__, on Flickr

 

and on the SL 601:

 

Le "cri" ! by JM__, on Flickr

 

Cheers, JM

[pgk]

75mm Summilux wide open on the M9. A 'dreamy' lens but sharp - individual hairs are actually very well defined in the focus plane (the horse's eye).

 

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[ianman]

The 75mm Summilux is my go-to lens for concerts... here are a couple of Esben and the Witch

 

 

 

Esben and the Witch by Ian Mantripp, on Flickr

Esben and the Witch by Ian Mantripp, on Flickr

[ianman]

Ozric Tentacles

 

M9, 75mm Summilux

Ozric Tentacles by Ian Mantripp, on Flickr

[Alberti]

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E60 (11134) is the pre-asph version. It's indeed a Mandler design but not the E55 asph version (11135) which was launched in 1997 if memory serves after Walter Mandler retired in the eighties. 

 

As they say, markets know best. 

At the Paris Beaumarchais Leica boutique, where I bought my E60, I noticed a 20% price difference between the two pre-asph 21mm/2.8 versions . . 

[lct]

[...] where I bought my E60, I noticed a 20% price difference between the two pre-asph 21mm/2.8 versions [...] 

 

The two pre-asph 21/2.8 versions i'm aware of are E49 and E60 with the same 11134 product number. E49 (first pic) is harder to find out and could be more expensive for this reason i suspect but i have no experience with those pre-asph versions. 

 

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[Alberti]

On the LFI Walter Mandler design page, the 2.8/21 mm is listed, with a link to a page with the afore mentioned three designers. In an obituary paper  by Mr Fricke, the 21 is also listed as a Mandler design.

 

As seen in lct's post, there are two housings: E49 and E60.

The versions have the same optics, the latter just having a wider sunshade and filter ring, with less vignetting of course. 

 

And there is a different 'name' on the two versions. The first version E49 is a Leitz (Canadian); the E60 is a "real" Leica lens. We see there was a retake of the branding around 1990-1992, also seen in other lenses at that time.

On the back, inbossed in black, inconspiciously at the base of the lens, my E60 says MADE IN CANADA. There is no imprint on the front where it was made anymore like on the front ring of the E49 version.

 

 

The E55 21mm is the ASPH version, a non-Mandler design.

 

[Guest JMF]

From a E60 21 pre asph 1983 on M8 :

 

Praia do Forte by JM__, on Flickr

 

Some of he earlier produced 21mm pre asph Elmarit lenses allow non coupled focusing down to 0.40m . RF focusing from 0.70m .

I currently have one of these.

[lct]

[...] Some of he earlier produced 21mm pre asph Elmarit lenses allow non coupled focusing down to 0.40m . RF focusing from 0.70m .

I currently have one of these.

 

So you have a E49 copy i suspect. Does it have a convex or concave focus tab? Just curious. 

[Guest JMF]

Never seen a e49 version , they must be super rare .

Chek out New Old Camera in Milan , they currently have a e60 close focus version of the 21 pre ash Elmarit for sell, with the 12537 hood and concave regular focus tab.

http://www.newoldcamera.com/Scheda.aspx?Codice=15U2942

[lct]

Interesting indeed, thanks for sharing. 

[Alberti]

I have looked into the error on the 21 mm LFI Wiki page, where three designers are mentioned, but not Mandler..

The error comes from a misinterpretation of the overview of Marco Cavina of the design history of this lens.

 

In his history of the wide-angle lens designs of Leitz there were designs made for a 1960 design and on the top of this design it says "Otto Zimmermann, Heinz Marquardt, Hermann Desch Eugen Hermanni, Leitz Wetzlar - 04/1960"; the drawing taken from a patent application from the German team. Cavina says this design was used for the [first version] 28 mm Elmarit.

So the shown 1960 21mm design was not a production design yet but later forms the start of the Canadian design team to start working.

 

The new challenge was to create a more retrofocus design with clearance of the meters such as the M5. Then in 1970 there is a patent overview of Mandler, Edwards and Wagner for an improved version of 18, 21, 25, 29 mm lenses; the Canadian team based the later 1972 28mmV2 on this. Still the team was not happy with the 21mm. A 1974 design patented by only Mandler shows a design with better avoidanve of vignetting and correction of distortion; and then finally there is the 1980 design by Walter Mandler that was the basis of the production lens 11134. 

 

The final design incorporates a doublet in the retrofocus element (identified with a blue arrow if you follow the above link for Cavina); this is what Cavina calls "the DNA" of the design of Mandler: in a broader overview of 21 mm lenses he expands that this is the basis of Mandler's signature colour handling.  

 

my 2¢

[Guest JMF]

21 Elmarit (e60 pre asph) on M8

 

w/ 21 Elmarit pre asph by JM__, on Flickr

[Guest JMF]

On film 

 

Catalunya National Day Celebration, Girona by JM__, on Flickr

[}{B]

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Leica M-E & 35mm Summicron MkIV

[michaelwj]

The two pre-asph 21/2.8 versions i'm aware of are E49 and E60 with the same 11134 product number. E49 (first pic) is harder to find out and could be more expensive for this reason i suspect but i have no experience with those pre-asph versions. 

 

42132185_1_x.jpg

 

3749-02.jpg

 

 

Interestingly my Leica Pocket Book 1980 shows an E49 Elmarit (p. 59) with a similar barrel to the v1 28mm Elmarit (p. 61). It actually looks to be the 28mm in both images going from the DoF scale, so maybe there were no 21mm's yet to photograph in early 1980?

 

Of course there is no mention of an E60 version in 1980...

[lct]

My Leitz catalogue 1980 shows an image of the E49... but mentions E49 on one page and E60 on the other . Same in the catalogue 1982. Leica as we love it .

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

Excerpt of the 1982 catalogue for those interested: 

 

LeicaM_2128_11134_catal.pdf