jaapv Posted July 4, 2018 Share #361 Posted July 4, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mods are welcome to delete my shots since most here are with R lenses anyway. M240 with 19mm Elmarit-R v.2. Last one here, see y'all picture enthusiasts in the R picture thread . . . twit2.jpg Mods see no reason to delete Mandler-lens images in a Mandler-lens image thread. The last thing we need in this forum is a tribal war. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Show us some Mandler Magic. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted July 4, 2018 Share #362 Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) Jaap - no need to delete images, but: Laney, Leica Collectors Guide, p. 185: 19mm f/2.8. "Second version: The lens has been recomputed...it was designed in Wetzlar and is now made in Solms." Puts, Leica Lens Compendium, p. 137: 2.8/19 Elmarit-R (II) 1990 "Between this version and the older one, there was a time span of 15 years, and a change in generations of designers." The 19mm f/2.8 v.2 is designed under Lothar Kölsch, Leica chief lens designer 1986-2002. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_K%C3%B6lsch Walter Mandler designed many lenses for the R system - but not this one. Edited July 4, 2018 by adan 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McGarrett Posted July 4, 2018 Share #363 Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) Jaap - no need to delete images, but: Laney, Leica Collectors Guide, p. 185: 19mm f/2.8. "Second version: The lens has been recomputed...it was designed in Wetzlar and is now made in Solms." Puts, Leica Lens Compendium, p. 137: 2.8/19 Elmarit-R (II) 1990 "Between this version and the older one, there was a time span of 15 years, and a change in generations of designers." The 19mm f/2.8 v.2 is designed under Lothar Kölsch, Leica chief lens designer 1986-2002. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_K%C3%B6lsch Walter Mandler designed many lenses for the R system - but not this one. That's correct Adan, thank you. Mandler retired around 1985, so he just couldn't design a lens for Leica in 1990. And by the way, that was not intended as a "tribal war" nor a "Mandler vs rest of world" rant, as I have the v2 19 Elmarit (together with the v1 Mandler's design) and I consider it one of my best lenses. I've just remarked it is not a Mandler design: my intention was neither to offend anyone nor to start a flame or a war. Edited July 4, 2018 by Steve McGarrett 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2018 Share #364 Posted July 4, 2018 Jaap - no need to delete images, but: Laney, Leica Collectors Guide, p. 185: 19mm f/2.8. "Second version: The lens has been recomputed...it was designed in Wetzlar and is now made in Solms." Puts, Leica Lens Compendium, p. 137: 2.8/19 Elmarit-R (II) 1990 "Between this version and the older one, there was a time span of 15 years, and a change in generations of designers." The 19mm f/2.8 v.2 is designed under Lothar Kölsch, Leica chief lens designer 1986-2002. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Lothar_K%C3%B6lsch Walter Mandler designed many lenses for the R system - but not this one. That touches on the question, Andy, whether a recomputation is a redesign. Given that the head designer normally does not do the computations himself, I would tend to say that the original designer will still be the one who designed the lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 4, 2018 Share #365 Posted July 4, 2018 That touches on the question, Andy, whether a recomputation is a redesign. Given that the head designer normally does not do the computations himself, I would tend to say that the original designer will still be the one who designed the lens. Probably new design. Only thing in common for Mk 1 & Mk 2 is FL of 19mm and max F stop of 2.8, these two are different lenses in many ways. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/19mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_I https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/19mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_II 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2018 Share #366 Posted July 4, 2018 In that case the word " recomputation" should be replaced by "redesign" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 4, 2018 Share #367 Posted July 4, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) In that case the word " recomputation" should be replaced by "redesign" Redesigned INMHO; despite internal similarity 9/7 element/groups was redesigned into 12/10 configuration. I suppose re-computation would apply to difference between Summicron M 28mm mk 1 and mk2. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2018 Share #368 Posted July 4, 2018 Indeed. Or Elmar 2.8-50/Elmar 2.8-50 M 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 4, 2018 Share #369 Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) In that case the word " recomputation" should be replaced by "redesign" Why? You have a lens with certain negative characteristics - let us say "size." You plug your goals (19mm, f/2.8, this diameter, this limit to the aberrations, this mtf if possible, these available glasses) into your optical computer, and produce a new computation, with new element shapes, a new number of elements, a new diameter, a new length, etc. etc. A recomputation of the desired lens. There may have been a time - before computers - when it was hard enough to take, for example, a 4-element Tessar, and simply redo the math with a hand calculator, or a pencil in a notebook, without changing the core layout. And that would be a recomputation also - but in a subset of all possible recomputations. Actually, Puts calls the 50 Elmar-M "completely redesigned" even though still essentially a 50mm f/2.8 Tessar. op. cit. - p. 115. The terms are interchangeable. Edited July 4, 2018 by adan 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 4, 2018 Share #370 Posted July 4, 2018 Anyway - Mandler's 35mm f/2 v.2 (computed in Canada, made in Wetzlar) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3549482'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2018 Share #371 Posted July 4, 2018 I'm all for precision in language - to match precision in engineering . I would not consider Erwin - much as I appreciate his writing- the ultimate authority on the meaning of English terms . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McGarrett Posted July 4, 2018 Share #372 Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) As I am not a native speaker, I can't argue with the use of one word or another, recomputed vs redesigned (and this doubles as an apology if my words' selection, before, was perceived as being rude: it was not my intention). I think that when a lens is just tweaked (coating, spacing, glass specs, and of course any cosmetic change in the barrel) and retains its original design it could maintain its original designer's name, but when the optical design is different (I mean number of elements/groups, layout etc.) it should be named after the new designer. Edited July 4, 2018 by Steve McGarrett 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 4, 2018 Share #373 Posted July 4, 2018 According to wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design For my sins I work for British based engineering consultancy making design decisions for a living and serving predominantly UK market and word designer has legally defined meaning. I paraphrase; any person making design decision be it new or already designed product or project is acting as a designer. So, any minor change to existing lens would be design. It just happens that designing optical assembly involve heavy computing, to re-compute is to design. Slightly off subject discussed in the Barnack's Bar earlier; there is well known ongoing case where most probably "bean counter(s) or person(s) deciding on project spend" decided to change (designed) safe cladding with different but cheaper variety and also probably allowed cost motivated corner cutting during construction that proved to be lethal for some seventy odd people, point being person responsible has made legally design decision - with disastrous consequences. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 4, 2018 Share #374 Posted July 4, 2018 I would not consider Erwin - much as I appreciate his writing- the ultimate authority on the meaning of English terms . But then - who is? Mandler 50mm Summicron v.5 (early) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3549526'>More sharing options...
Adrian Lord Posted July 5, 2018 Share #375 Posted July 5, 2018 noctilux f1 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3550394'>More sharing options...
evikne Posted July 10, 2018 Share #376 Posted July 10, 2018 Leica M10, Noctilux-M 50/1.0 (v2) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3553550'>More sharing options...
evikne Posted July 10, 2018 Share #377 Posted July 10, 2018 Leica M10, Noctilux-M 50/1.0 (v2) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3553567'>More sharing options...
me111 Posted July 11, 2018 Share #378 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 35 summilux pre-a Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited July 11, 2018 by me111 11 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3553727'>More sharing options...
mikozia Posted July 13, 2018 Share #379 Posted July 13, 2018 M-P w/75mm Summilux-M Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3554995'>More sharing options...
TheGodParticle/Hari Posted July 14, 2018 Share #380 Posted July 14, 2018 M10, Noctilux 50/1.2 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 11 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/?do=findComment&comment=3555634'>More sharing options...
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