90mm f/4 "Fat" Elmar

[cobbu2]

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Leitz Dickes Elmar/Fat Elmar 4/9cm von 1932

on Sony A7 - RAW developed in DXO PRO 10, Preset "Without correction" ooC ISO 200.

 

I love it.

 

Very nice!  An amazingly capable lens for its age.

[machmaphoto]

Leitz Dickes Elmar/Fat Elmar 4/9cm von 1932

on Sony A7 - RAW developed in DXO PRO 10, Preset "Without correction" ooC ISO 200.

 

Yes cobbu2 -

and modern straight rawfiles can give such old Leitz gems a new (nearly) true life in colours too.

 

But one must beware to "correct" them to a nowadays character in postproduction - and really hands off ! the clarity - regler. In those days they had often a poor microcontrast.

 

For demonstration I let here both photos uncorrected and unsharpened as they were.. I like the (for me) decent and tasteful rendition of colours even short before the "colour time" in photography also for amateurs was beginning. 

 

Erwin Puts in his new "Leica Lens Saga" S. 152 : "Around 1935 panchromatic films and colour films became available and the optical industry had to follow these trends."

 

 

(Scenery at the Kulturforum Berlin, midground the Philharmonie, in the background Potsdamer Platz with the Sony Forum.)

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Edited November 10, 2016 by machmaphoto

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[cobbu2]

Leitz Dickes Elmar/Fat Elmar 4/9cm von 1932

on Sony A7 - RAW developed in DXO PRO 10, Preset "Without correction" ooC ISO 200.

 

Yes cobbu2 -

and modern straight rawfiles can give such old Leitz gems a new (nearly) true life in colours too.

 

But one must beware to "correct" them to a nowadays character in postproduction - and really hands off ! the clarity - regler. In those days they had often a poor microcontrast.

 

For demonstration I let here both photos uncorrected and unsharpened as they were.. I like the (for me) decent and tasteful rendition of colours even short before the "colour time" in photography also for amateurs was beginning. 

 

Erwin Puts in his new "Leica Lens Saga" S. 152 : "Around 1935 panchromatic films and colour films became available and the optical industry had to follow these trends."

 

 

(Scenery at the Kulturforum Berlin, midground the Philharmonie, in the background Potsdamer Platz with the Sony Forum.)

 

It's true, the original 90/4 Elmar does have a unique signature.  My examples at the beginning of the post have no post-process sharpening, but there were minor adjustments in levels and contrast to counteract a high degree of flare that was present.

[ironringer]

Just catching up 16+ months after this discussion about these initial fat and then thin 9cm Elmars, and I like the solid look of the "fatties" especially the even dozen shown by Alan (thank you, good picture of these surviving soldiers).

These are lovely old black/brass lenses, with usable results on film or digital cameras, and someday I hope to cross paths with one in Canada. preferably a coupled one to use with my Type D.

[jc_braconi]

Just speaking about serial number what do you think about this one :
3rd lot of 1932

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[alan mcfall]

Nice lens from lot 97101-97136 of 36 lenses  I have recorded 97109 and 97112 in addition to your 97117.Thiele shows this small lot included with lots 97605- 97050, and 97051-97100. Some sources have shown this last small lot to contain a few lenses not 90 Elmars. Thiele does not show any recorded lens of any focal length between 94251 -94284, while others show 94251-94300 to also be a mixed lot including some Fat Elmars.

 

Thiele's total count for fat Elmars with 5 digit serials is 680.  If the two mixed lots are 50% Fat Elmar, I get the same number. In theory, the number could range from 630 to 730.  So, 5 digit Fat Elmars are not a  high number, and one should watch for them. Specific details of the mixed lots, if available from factory records, would be nice to have.  

 

One has to believe the system for allocating serial batches and following through with production was in its infancy with 5 digit serials. Perhaps XX Fat Elmars were allocated, but parts ran out before completion; and not wanting to leave gaps in the numbers, some 50 Elmars were given the serials for the remaining allocated 90 Elmars.  So we have sometimes "mixed" lots occuring. Just a thought.

[derleicaman]

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I took a look at my fat Elmar after stumbling across this old thread. Its a non-numbered lens, black and nickel Export lens. Marked "Germany" on the lens barrel, with distance scale in feet. I spoke to Jim Lager about it today and we will be writing a future article in Viewfinder about it. According to Jim, these very early lenses are fairly rare and he considers them to be a transition from the very first interchangeable lenses which were marked with the last three numbers of the camera with non-standard mount and the fully interchangeable serial numbered lenses. Unscrewing the lens head reveals the number "89" hand written in pencil on the inside of the mount. Jim thinks this is the actual focal length of the lens.

[willeica]

I took a look at my fat Elmar after stumbling across this old thread. Its a non-numbered lens, black and nickel Export lens. Marked "Germany" on the lens barrel, with distance scale in feet. I spoke to Jim Lager about it today and we will be writing a future article in Viewfinder about it. According to Jim, these very early lenses are fairly rare and he considers them to be a transition from the very first interchangeable lenses which were marked with the last three numbers of the camera with non-standard mount and the fully interchangeable serial numbered lenses. Unscrewing the lens head reveals the number "89" hand written in pencil on the inside of the mount. Jim thinks this is the actual focal length of the lens.

 

Thanks Bill. I suspect that Jim is correct about the '89' being the focal length. I have looked inside the mount on my Fat Elmar SN 122913 from 1932 and I find that there is a German '7' with a stroke through it scratched inside the top of the mount. Perhaps by then Leica had come up with a number code system for the focal length variations on the 9cm Elmar, just as was the case for the 50mm Elmar. I would be interested in finding out about this.

 

William

[jc_braconi]

Nice lens from lot 97101-97136 of 36 lenses  I have recorded 97109 and 97112 in addition to your 97117.Thiele shows this small lot included with lots 97605- 97050, and 97051-97100. Some sources have shown this last small lot to contain a few lenses not 90 Elmars. Thiele does not show any recorded lens of any focal length between 94251 -94284, while others show 94251-94300 to also be a mixed lot including some Fat Elmars.

 

Thiele's total count for fat Elmars with 5 digit serials is 680.  If the two mixed lots are 50% Fat Elmar, I get the same number. In theory, the number could range from 630 to 730.  So, 5 digit Fat Elmars are not a  high number, and one should watch for them. Specific details of the mixed lots, if available from factory records, would be nice to have.  

 

One has to believe the system for allocating serial batches and following through with production was in its infancy with 5 digit serials. Perhaps XX Fat Elmars were allocated, but parts ran out before completion; and not wanting to leave gaps in the numbers, some 50 Elmars were given the serials for the remaining allocated 90 Elmars.  So we have sometimes "mixed" lots occuring. Just a thought.

My book 2007 edition gives 96605 to 97136 = 532

 

 97605- 97050, ? 97605 - 97136

[micmarc]

Hi there.

I have been following this thread for a while, looking for some clues about a 'fat' Elmar copy we retreived in our collection during the inventorying. I thought I may ask directly, meanwhile sharing the existence of this copy to such a passionate users.

It belonged to a renowned Japanese photographer that had a passion for Leica, in particular Elmar and Hektor lenses. But he was not a collector toutcourt. He chose lenses for his work mainly.

Premitting that anybody with means and will, can customize any lens he may wish (he also had lenses customizations commissioned), I would be interested in knowing if somebody has ever seen anything like this on such an old and by now relatively rare lens: a Fat Elmar in exacta mount. Because he certainly did not commission it (we have exakta-mount lenses, but he did not use it that much). One reference he left, mentions a purchase in Italy during the '70s, but it is not sure if it was this one or another he later relinquished. Considering that Exacta reflex cameras came out just a few year after Fat Elmar, my idea is that the lens may have been customized already in the factory or commissione to it. Perhaps as experiment. Other mounts looking more practical or appealing in later times. The serial seems to place it within the 200 pieces of the above mentione 128001-128200 batch. Customization is very well done and th elens reaches perfectly infinity.

 

Michele Marcolin

[luigi bertolotti]

Interesting work… as a side note, several years ago a dealer in Milano showed to me a Thambar in Exacta Mount and told me that the Thambar was even adapted, by some lab in Rome, to be mounted on the smart but ill-fated Rectaflex (the only SLR made in Italy).

[TomB_tx]

Indeed interesting to see the Exakta mount, and the tie to a Japanese photographer. In 1955 Canon sold two of their normally ltm RF lenses in Exakta mount - 100mm and 135mm. Although this was a couple decades after the Fat Elmar, perhaps there was a Japanese concern doing conversions then.

[M9reno]

Nice lens from lot 97101-97136 of 36 lenses  I have recorded 97109 and 97112 in addition to your 97117.Thiele shows this small lot included with lots 97605- 97050, and 97051-97100. Some sources have shown this last small lot to contain a few lenses not 90 Elmars. Thiele does not show any recorded lens of any focal length between 94251 -94284, while others show 94251-94300 to also be a mixed lot including some Fat Elmars.

 

Thiele's total count for fat Elmars with 5 digit serials is 680.  If the two mixed lots are 50% Fat Elmar, I get the same number. In theory, the number could range from 630 to 730.  So, 5 digit Fat Elmars are not a  high number, and one should watch for them. Specific details of the mixed lots, if available from factory records, would be nice to have.  

 

One has to believe the system for allocating serial batches and following through with production was in its infancy with 5 digit serials. Perhaps XX Fat Elmars were allocated, but parts ran out before completion; and not wanting to leave gaps in the numbers, some 50 Elmars were given the serials for the remaining allocated 90 Elmars.  So we have sometimes "mixed" lots occuring. Just a thought.

I own the five-digit ‘fatty’ no. 96943.

[Pyrogallol]

I just bought a Fat Elmar, black and nickel,135386, from 1932, which I think is towards the end of the fat ones.

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[Pecole]

I had an unnumbered "fat" Elmar 9cm in my collection, but unlike Luigi's one, it was not coupled. I show a photo of same, and also one where the lens is mounted on a Leica II with the VIZWO viewfinder. And, as Luigi, I show the 12 variants of 9cm Elmar and Velostigmat I had in collection.

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[TomB_tx]

I wonder if Leitz thought the "fat" barrel would give more precise control over focus, since this was before coupled RF, and DOF on a 90 is thinner. Once the model II came along you didn't have to transfer the distance to the lens scale...

Edited September 12, 2020 by TomB_tx

[Pyrogallol]

On 9/12/2020 at 3:21 PM, Pyrogallol said:

I just bought a Fat Elmar, black and nickel,135386, from 1932, which I think is towards the end of the fat ones.

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Just printed a decent picture from the fat Elmar, darkroom print.