Leica Summaron-28 -image thread

[Rick]

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Ok, I just compared the vignetting of my 5.6 Summaron to my 2.0 Summicron and yes, there is a difference in the vignetting.

 

But, in playing around with these two lenses tonight, I have to say that the little Summaron is just such a cool lens.  It is so dense in weight that it is fun to toss from hand to hand.  It is so small and compact.  

 

The lens elements are also compact.  The entire front element diameter is about 8mm.  It is just amazing that a lens with such sharpness on center, and with basically no distortion, was made in the 1950s.  This lens is a classic design that demonstrates what the Leica optical engineers of that time were able to design.  The Summaron 28 is a classic double Gauss design, and this one is about as perfect as that design gets.  

 

My 2.8/5.6 Summaron is just fun to own, and produces unique and fine quality images while having a classic Leica build quality that is both rock solid and, I must say, immensely gratifying to own and handle.

 

This has been one of my most gratify lenses to own and shoot.  I'm sure that in 20 years people will be saying the same thing.  It is probably why Leica chose this lens to be one of the first remakes of their classic designs.

 

The point being, this is why Leica lenses are such a value.  In 20 years it will still be relevant and people will still be talking about it.  That is both a value and fun!

 

Rick 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Rick

[lct]

None of my lenses allow me to get both glow and DoF at f/5.6. I would be interested if i used 28mm more often.

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[105012]

Another option for an ultra-compact 28mm is the tiny Voigtländer 28mm:

• solid brass construction, surprisingly dense feeling in the hand
• construction quality seems at the top level of Cosina production
• f/3.5 (Summaron f/5.6)
• 0.7m minimum focus distance (Summaron 1m)
• 19mm depth (Summaron 18mm)
• highly regarded image quality

 

The 'huge' lens next to it is the Summicron 50mm Type IV.

[wattsy]

This has to be one of the weirdest products yet for the contemporary Leica Camera AG. I will stick to my 28mm/2 and 28mm/2.8 ASPH lenses thanks. The f/2.8 one in particular is superb at every aperture and focus distance. The new or old 28mm Summaron is going to be inferior at any aperture, and the Elmarit ASPH will be better wide open than the Summaron at f/8, and the 28mm/5.6 isn't a bargain. This must be for the folks who bought the Lenny Kravitz edition M-P.

 

 

I disagree. The Kravitz M-P was a piece of kitsch with no functional advantage over a regular M-P. This 'new' lens is functionally quite different from the other 28mm lenses in the catalogue and is IMO the most interesting thing to be announced by Leica since the M-A a couple of years ago. If I had a couple of grand burning a hole in my pocket I'd probably be ordering it now. In truth it actually makes little sense for me to buy one – I already have a very good 28mm Summicron and the Summaron, on paper, has little (in comparison) to commend it. Longer minimum focussing distance (1m), weird filter size (E34) for which I don't have any filters (and I suspect that few filters are commercially available in that size), and a maximum aperture that will inevitably become a limiting factor when I'm out at dawn or dusk without a tripod. However, all that said, I no longer buy and use Leica gear for logical reasons (there are 'better', cheaper, smaller, more functional alternatives) and an opportunity to buy, new, a beautifully made little lens like the Summaron that will remain, as Rick says, relevant for decades, may become too tempting for me to resist. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by wattsy

[willeica]

Ok, I just compared the vignetting of my 5.6 Summaron to my 2.0 Summicron and yes, there is a difference in the vignetting.

 

But, in playing around with these two lenses tonight, I have to say that the little Summaron is just such a cool lens.  It is so dense in weight that it is fun to toss from hand to hand.  It is so small and compact.  

 

The lens elements are also compact.  The entire front element diameter is about 8mm.  It is just amazing that a lens with such sharpness on center, and with basically no distortion, was made in the 1950s.  This lens is a classic design that demonstrates what the Leica optical engineers of that time were able to design.  The Summaron 28 is a classic double Gauss design, and this one is about as perfect as that design gets.  

 

My 2.8/5.6 Summaron is just fun to own, and produces unique and fine quality images while having a classic Leica build quality that is both rock solid and, I must say, immensely gratifying to own and handle.

 

This has been one of my most gratify lenses to own and shoot.  I'm sure that in 20 years people will be saying the same thing.  It is probably why Leica chose this lens to be one of the first remakes of their classic designs.

 

The point being, this is why Leica lenses are such a value.  In 20 years it will still be relevant and people will still be talking about it.  That is both a value and fun!

 

Rick 

 

Thanks Rick. This is a perfect verbal description of what can be seen in my article/photos linked earlier in this thread. There are some contributions here where people are justifying buying or not buying the lens. There is, of course, no obligation on any Leica user or collector to buy any particular lens, old or new. I bought this lens as a collector's piece, with the very expensive SOOBK hood with black crackle finish being added slightly later. My article shows the size of the lens on the M240 both with and without the hood and also by comparison with a 28mm Summicron shown on an M9 both with and without a hood.

 

There has been some discussion here about other possible candidates for a Leica lens re-issue program. A lot of older lenses are available quite cheaply eg the 50 Elmar and the 50 collapsible Summar. I have 7 different copies (all good) of the various variants of the latter lens. These provide wonderful 'character', quite different to that found in modern lenses. One issue with collapsible lenses is possible sensor damage, so I never collapse them on a digital camera. One wonderful little lens that does not collapse which might be a candidate for a 're-issue' program is the the A36 version of the 35mm f 3.5 Summaron lens. This is a very compact lens which also produces wonderful images, perhaps a little less good than those from the 2.8cm f5.6 Summaron. It is, however, much more common than the 2.8cm Summaron and, hence, it is a lot cheaper. I can post photos taken by this lens on a digital M , if anyone is interested. There is no reason why any Leica user should not buy one of these with an adaptor tomorrow for €200-€300 and start shooting the 'old look' today. I believe that the old 2.8cm f5.6 model will always be expensive because of scarcity. The price of the old version will probably rise because of the new version being so much more expensive. I have no intention of selling mine any time soon.

 

William

Edited October 20, 2016 by willeica

[wattsy]

Looking at the photographs on the Leica website, the new lens seems to have excellent flare control when shooting into the light (no ugly blobs of flare that seem characteristic of the wide ASPH lenses I've owned/own like the 24 Elmarit, 28 Summicron and 35 Summicron) but the vignetting looks like it might be too much for my taste. For those experienced with the original lens, does this look normal when used on a digital camera and is the vignetting typically improved when used with film (like the 28 Summicron, which I find vignettes on digital far more than on film)?

 

https://static.leica-camera.com/var/leica/storage/images/media/media-asset-management-mam/global-international/photography/m-system/m-lenses/fast-compact-lenses/leica-summaron-m-28-mm-f-5.6/performance-proofs/daniel-flaschar-11/1709935-1-eng-MA/Daniel-Flaschar-11_teaser-1200x800.jpg

Edited October 20, 2016 by wattsy

[jaapv]

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Yes, it does vignette; I wonder whether these shots were made with lens recognition off. In digital it is not a problem, though. Whether it will vignette on film depends. If it is purely optical vignetting it should be the same, but if it is caused by steep incidence angles on the sensor, there should be less of a problem on film. I suspect it is a bit of both, making the vignetting a bit less on film (I hope )

[jaapv]

Thanks Rick. This is a perfect verbal description of what can be seen in my article/photos linked earlier in this thread. There are some contributions here where people are justifying buying or not buying the lens. There is, of course, no obligation on any Leica user or collector to buy any particular lens, old or new. I bought this lens as a collector's piece, with the very expensive SOOBK hood with black crackle finish being added slightly later. My article shows the size of the lens on the M240 both with and without the hood and also by comparison with a 28mm Summicron shown on an M9 both with and without a hood.

 

There has been some discussion here about other possible candidates for a Leica lens re-issue program. A lot of older lenses are available quite cheaply eg the 50 Elmar and the 50 collapsible Summar. I have 7 different copies (all good) of the various variants of the latter lens. These provide wonderful 'character', quite different to that found in modern lenses. One issue with collapsible lenses is possible sensor damage, so I never collapse them on a digital camera. One wonderful little lens that does not collapse which might be a candidate for a 're-issue' program is the the A36 version of the 35mm f 3.5 Summaron lens. This is a very compact lens which also produces wonderful images, perhaps a little less good than those from the 2.8cm f5.6 Summaron. It is, however, much more common than the 2.8cm Summaron and, hence, it is a lot cheaper. I can post photos taken by this lens on a digital M , if anyone is interested. There is no reason why any Leica user should not buy one of these with an adaptor tomorrow for €200-€300 and start shooting the 'old look' today. I believe that the old 2.8cm f5.6 model will always be expensive because of scarcity. The price of the old version will probably rise because of the new version being so much more expensive. I have no intention of selling mine any time soon.

 

William

How can there be sensor damage? The register distance is the same with film and sensor. If there is sensor damage there will be film damage. The main problem on modern M cameras is that the metal shutter is slightly more protrusive and the throat is narrower. The only lens I would worry about is the old 90/4 collapsible. that one might hit the shutter baffles.

[wattsy]

Yes, it does vignette; I wonder whether these shots were made with lens recognition off. In digital it is not a problem, though. Whether it will vignette on film depends. If it is purely optical vignetting it should be the same, but if it is caused by steep incidence angles on the sensor, there should be less of a problem on film. I suspect it is a bit of both, making the vignetting a bit less on film (I hope )

 

 

Yes, that's what I'm wondering. I find the 28 Summicron vignettes on digital far more than film, even with the camera lens corrections enabled (at least it did on my M9 type cameras, I don't know if it is different with the M240 type bodies). If the Summaron optically vignettes this much I'll probably pass on it even though vignetting is reasonably easy to reduce when I am post-processing scans.

[willeica]

How can there be sensor damage? The register distance is the same with film and sensor. If there is sensor damage there will be film damage. The main problem on modern M cameras is that the metal shutter is slightly more protrusive and the throat is narrower. The only lens I would worry about is the old 90/4 collapsible. that one might hit the shutter baffles.

 

I would not take the risk with any collapsible lens. If Leica produce any new versions of older collapsible lenses they should clarify this at the outset. While I am on the subject, the collapsible Summar produces lovely images on the M8 with wonderful swirly 'bokeh' when shot near to wide open.

 

 

 

Yes, that's what I'm wondering. I find the 28 Summicron vignettes on digital far more than film, even with the camera lens corrections enabled (at least it did on my M9 type cameras, I don't know if it is different with the M240 type bodies). If the Summaron optically vignettes this much I'll probably pass on it even though vignetting is reasonably easy to reduce when I am post-processing scans.

 

I only got a tiny bit of vignetting with the 2.8cm f 5.6 Summaron on the M240. This, in the few cases where it arose, was fixed in seconds in Lightroom. I am sure that the new version will be even better in this regard.

 

William

[pedaes]

Yes, that's what I'm wondering. I find the 28 Summicron vignettes on digital far more than film, even with the camera lens corrections enabled (at least it did on my M9 type cameras, I don't know if it is different with the M240 type bodies). If the Summaron optically vignettes this much I'll probably pass on it even though vignetting is reasonably easy to reduce when I am post-processing scans.

 

It is so severe it may be intentional/enhanced to demonstrate the 'characteristic'

[wattsy]

I only got a tiny bit of vignetting with the 2.8cm f 5.6 Summaron on the M240. This, in the few cases where it arose, was fixed in seconds in Lightroom. I am sure that the new version will be even better in this regard.

 

 

 

William, what do you make of the vignetting in the photographs Leica are showing here? Do you think it has been artificially 'enhanced' (as in increased) or is it what you'd expect? I must admit that, as shown, there is far too much vignetting for my taste. This lens interests me very much but I'm not going to pay £1900 if it vignettes like a Lomo lens.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by wattsy

[wattsy]

It is so severe it may be intentional/enhanced to demonstrate the 'characteristic'

 

Yes, that was what I'm wondering. I'd like to think that the new lens does have quite a bit of 'character', just not that much. 

[philipus]

I think it is hilarious that Leica would revive this lens of all the old lenses. Personally I would rather buy the old lens (but I won't because I have the Hektor which is a way more interesting lens, though optically inferior). I do think they ought to have made this an LTM with built-in M adapter, though.

 

It seems this lens has the same optical formula as the SNOOX, and the diagram looks very similar to the one in the Wiki, too, from the data sheet:

 

This Leica Summaron 28 mm f/5.6 is a replica of the model originally introduced in 1955. With its 6 lens elements

arranged strictly symmetrically around the aperture in 4 groups, it has the same optical design. Its extremely compact

mechanical construction also corresponds to the original. Unlike this, however, the current model is equipped

with the M bayonet including 6 bit code. Furthermore, various external details have been adapted to the appearance

of the current M lenses, for example the shape of the focus unlock button, the diameter of the aperture ring and

the knurling.

 

 

 

Where is the information that this is a recalculated optical formula? Granted there's modern coating but that's different from recalculating a lens optically.

 

Philip

[jaapv]

For one thing: the original glass types  are most likely not available any more. Most likely Leica did the same thing as with the Elmar-M: Use the old optical formula and recalculate using newer glass.

[helged]

Regading vignetting: I would not be too worried about vignetting per se, although some degradation of the pixel quality will take place during pp when the exposure is lifted in the outer parts of an image.

 

Mis-colouring towards the edges/corners as part of the vignetting can, however, be a pain to correct in certain (mixed) light conditions. The latter should be better known as more images are ticking in.

 

A tempting lens, nevertheless.

[wattsy]

Regading vignetting: I would not be too worried about vignetting per se, although some degradation of the pixel quality will take place

Sounds like you are making the assumption that users will be shooting digitally. I for one no longer have an M compatible digital camera and have no plans to buy another.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[willeica]

William, what do you make of the vignetting in the photographs Leica are showing here? Do you think it has been artificially 'enhanced' (as in increased) or is it what you'd expect? I must admit that, as shown, there is far too much vignetting for my taste. This lens interests me very much but I'm not going to pay £1900 if it vignettes like a Lomo lens.

 

 

 You will see nothing like this in my photos taken with the old lens. This guy seems to have gone out of his way to create flare and vignetting. Perhaps he intended to use the effects as 'features'. I sometimes do that with even older lenses. I did not have these issues using the old version of this lens and any that did arise were easily fixed in Lightroom. I shot two sets of photos; the first in sunny weather and the second in cloudy weather and the lens worked well in both types of weather. That is all I can say other than perhaps that the Leica marketing/advertising departments could do with some experienced photographers on the editorial side.

 

William

[jaapv]

Regading vignetting: I would not be too worried about vignetting per se, although some degradation of the pixel quality will take place during pp when the exposure is lifted in the outer parts of an image.

 

Mis-colouring towards the edges/corners as part of the vignetting can, however, be a pain to correct in certain (mixed) light conditions. The latter should be better known as more images are ticking in.

 

A tempting lens, nevertheless.

Not too much of a pain; a simple flat field correction will take care of such shifts.

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[ianman]

The vignetting on the examples is just ridiculous !! Personally I like vignetting but that is just way over the top. As others have said this must amount must have been added in pp.

 

I wonder whether these shots were made with lens recognition off.

Anyway to my question... a bit silly really but here goes. I suppose there needs to be a firmware update for the M9 to manage in-camera corrections, does Leica still support the older Ms in this regard ?