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T and Fuji-X


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Interesting that you should ask. I've owned the T with the 11-23 and the 18-56 for about a year, and I picked up the X-Pro2 and a few primes on it's release. I've been impatiently waiting for a clear indication from Leica about what the future of the T line is. Just last Thursday I picked up a Fuji 10-24 and 18-55 to evaluate if the Fuji could replace my T system. I haven't had the time to form more than first impressions. The T system wins on style, weight, and size, but the Fuji isn't far behind. I prefer the Fuji viewfinder system to the Visoflex. I've only really started to look at the IQ and primarily with the wide zoom. Fuji has developed a reputation for producing excellent lenses, and I really enjoy my primes (16/1.4, 23/2, 35/1.4, 56/1.2 and 90/2). However, there are reports of quality issues with some copies of Fuji lenses and it seems that there is some truth to these reports. My Fuji 10-24 is clearly weaker on the right side, indicating a decentering issue. My T zooms don't exhibit this problem.

 

My very preliminary conclusion is, that although I like the Fuji, it seems it may be necessary to use more care in selecting lenses to avoid QC issues. If Fuji can fix my lens (or replace it) without too much trouble, then Fuji may win the day. Otherwise it looks like the T will stay.

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I bought the T 1.5 years ago and sold a/o my Fuji gear.  I owned the X-Pro1, the X100s and the X-T1 with 4 primes (14/2.8, 23/1.4, 35/1.4 and 56/1.2).  I agree with you on the body.  Leica wins hands down as far as design, simplicity, minimalism, ergonomics, etc is concerned.  The T is a piece of art as far as I am concerned.  The differences in size and weight are minimal I find.  I also agree with you on the Visoflex which I find a laggy eyesore.  That being said, Fuji does have a full line-up of lenses.  They are entirely committed to APS-C and have created 20+ lenses up till now.  Leica has 6 lenses... and although the Fuji system is about 2 years older it is clear IMHO that Leica will not get to 20+ lenses anytime soon, if ever at all... Fuji has especially also listened to their customers.  Rather than indulging in heavy and expensive lenses like Leica (and Sony) they are releasing the 23/2, 35/2 and 50/2 (next year): lightweight, inexpensive, high quality, weather resistant lenses with fast AF.  Very smart move IMHO... Just like you I am awaiting the T2 finding it fairly incomprehensible that there is no communication and especially no lens roadmap at all...  How is the high ISO performance is the X-Pro2?

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I had both the original  Fuji X and the X Pro 1 for quite awhile.  The X was a terrific little camera (albeit with a fatal a shutter flaw)  and the X Pro 1 was not a favorite with me at all.  I have the Leica T now with the 3 zooms .. as mentioned above, it is a work of Art IMO.  Aside from the awkward ergonomics and complicated menus, the biggest problem I had with the X Pro 1 was with the color produced.  I could never get what I thought were accurate colors. The T on the other hand produces the most beautiful colors I have ever worked with .. with little or no post.  The newer Fuji models are certainly better than the originals, but I have resisted buying due to my previous frustrating experience with them.  As with many camera systems, the Fuji looks great on paper with all of the amazing specs,  rapid fire power, high ISO ratings etc.  but real world shooting for me is far more pleasing with the simpler design of the  Leica T or even the X Vario .  In the end, I get more photos with outstanding color and IQ from the Leica cameras than with any other systems.

 

Rick

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If you are comparing anything to T without knowing M lenses are part of T, you are missing the important part of T.  

 

People I know who use T mostly use the T-zoom lens, and complement with M lense. If none of the M or T or SL satisfy you, the chances are you are looking for something does not exist. 

 

If M price is a matter, find used ones.  

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That being said, Fuji does have a full line-up of lenses.  They are entirely committed to APS-C and have created 20+ lenses up till now.  Leica has 6 lenses... and although the Fuji system is about 2 years older it is clear IMHO that Leica will not get to 20+ lenses anytime soon, if ever at all... 

 

I think that one thing I've realized with the T is minimalism goes deeper than the UI. It extends down to the lens catalog. I think that they are very carefully saying in essence "what do you really need?" It isn't how much kit you carry that makes you a better photographer. It is what you do with it. They have covered most use cases with a minimal number of lenses. How does their strategically chosen minimal lens catalog limit your photographic creativity? They aren't doing some combinatorial expansion. They have been super strategic.

 

With the two launch lenses the 23mm and the 18-55mm they basically covered probably 80% of photographic uses.

With the 11-23 and 55-135mm They have probably covered 90% of photography with those.

With the macro and summilux, I'd say with just those six lenses they have now covered about 95% of photographic uses.

 

So what is left? What other lenses do people really need? 

- Faster zoom lenses? That is really the domain of SL. If your photography NEEDS that you've probably graduated to the SL or maybe just the SL lenses.

- A Superzoom lens beyond the 200mm equivalent focal length? You start getting into some odd optical and performance problems. To hold it steady out at those very telescopic focal lengths you need a pretty fast shutter speed and probably some OIS or VR which means that you need a larger aperture which means a larger lens and handling problems. Are you really going to take the T on safari? At a sporting event getting a close up of your favorite athlete. If you really need this reach mount up the APO-Vario-Elmarit 90-280mm and what amounts to a 420mm focal distance at f/4

- A fast portrait lens? Maybe but isn't that more the domain of the SL or a SL lens.

- A fish eye?

- A T/S? That is either a SL or S otherwise just do stitches or use digital perspective fixes.

- More primes?

- A travel lens like an 18-200mm with a macro mode for those people who take one super wide range zoom traveling.

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I think that one thing I've realized with the T is minimalism goes deeper than the UI. It extends down to the lens catalog. I think that they are very carefully saying in essence "what do you really need?" It isn't how much kit you carry that makes you a better photographer. It is what you do with it. They have covered most use cases with a minimal number of lenses. How does their strategically chosen minimal lens catalog limit your photographic creativity? They aren't doing some combinatorial expansion. They have been super strategic.

 

With the two launch lenses the 23mm and the 18-55mm they basically covered probably 80% of photographic uses.

With the 11-23 and 55-135mm They have probably covered 90% of photography with those.

With the macro and summilux, I'd say with just those six lenses they have now covered about 95% of photographic uses.

 

So what is left? What other lenses do people really need? 

- Faster zoom lenses? That is really the domain of SL. If your photography NEEDS that you've probably graduated to the SL or maybe just the SL lenses.

- A Superzoom lens beyond the 200mm equivalent focal length? You start getting into some odd optical and performance problems. To hold it steady out at those very telescopic focal lengths you need a pretty fast shutter speed and probably some OIS or VR which means that you need a larger aperture which means a larger lens and handling problems. Are you really going to take the T on safari? At a sporting event getting a close up of your favorite athlete. If you really need this reach mount up the APO-Vario-Elmarit 90-280mm and what amounts to a 420mm focal distance at f/4

- A fast portrait lens? Maybe but isn't that more the domain of the SL or a SL lens.

- A fish eye?

- A T/S? That is either a SL or S otherwise just do stitches or use digital perspective fixes.

- More primes?

- A travel lens like an 18-200mm with a macro mode for those people who take one super wide range zoom traveling.

 

I guess we don't really know, do we, as nobody has any clue what Leica's plans for the Leica T were/are...?

 

IMHO the user base of the T is probably to small to go much beyond the 6 lenses that are available right now, just like the user base of the S is too small to go beyond 10 lenses...

 

You mention a fast portrait lens, Fuji has got that covered with the 56mm/f1.2.  You mention super zoom and travel lenses, Fuji has got that covered with the 100-400 which is weather resistant and has OIS....

 

And yes, I know that you can shoot M lenses on the T, but you can also do that on the Fuji and the Sony and pretty much any other mirrorless system nowadays.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love what is available but compared to Fuji it is a very incomplete system...

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I'm satisfied with the current lens lineup...given the prices I'm not likely to add a lot of lenses. However, the T body is in need of a refresh IMO. A more current sensor, perhaps with 20-24mp, a faster processor, and a better EVF (preferably integrated into to the body) would be my wish list.  

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Don't get me wrong, I love what is available but compared to Fuji it is a very incomplete system...

 

Why does this matter? It isn't how much kit you carry that makes you a better photographer. It is what you do with it.

 

A core Leica design value is das Wesentliche a particular kind of minimalism. It isn't an excuse for we don't have a huge R&D budget. It is a guiding principle, a design philosophy. Feature for feature no Leica camera stands up to the feature packed models from Asia. Instead of getting on the same treadmill and trying to maintain feature parity with other similar cameras in the market, they focus on providing the photographer with what they need and spend time and R&D money to execute it very well. They aren't going to do as well in head to head reviews but as a creative tool, they certainly punch above their weight class. 

 

It is certainly true that Fuji has more lenses than Leica. (I kind of ran through their catalog when I wrote my previous email.) My rhetorical question is how does not having those lenses limit your ability to pursue your art? What fundamental limitation are you running into that cannot be overcome by learning to be a better photographer? das Wesentliche.

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I guess we don't really know, do we, as nobody has any clue what Leica's plans for the Leica T were/are...?

 

IMHO the user base of the T is probably to small to go much beyond the 6 lenses that are available right now, just like the user base of the S is too small to go beyond 10 lenses...

 

You mention a fast portrait lens, Fuji has got that covered with the 56mm/f1.2.  You mention super zoom and travel lenses, Fuji has got that covered with the 100-400 which is weather resistant and has OIS....

 

And yes, I know that you can shoot M lenses on the T, but you can also do that on the Fuji and the Sony and pretty much any other mirrorless system nowadays.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love what is available but compared to Fuji it is a very incomplete system...

 

If Leica has the wherewithal, the "user base" of the T has the capacity to encompass the users of the X2, X vario, X 113, DLux 109 and maybe even the V Lux 114.  They are mostly there as it is now with the lens selections with the T.  There is the 23mm for the X2 and X113 users, the 18-56 for the X Vario and D Lux 109 crowd. Perhaps add a superzoom for the V Lux users?  Keep the body similar and/or merge it with the X Vario interface, add a built in EVF, improve AF speed, and upgrade the sensor.  Seems like the 'solution' is very possible. This would make the T very competitive with Sony, Fuji, Olympus, etc. . . and might be much more efficient and quite cost effective from a production and marketing standpoint. 

Edited by ropo54
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The S, the T and SL all move to a new camera concept with the T of course being the most revolutionary with a more or less touchscreen only user interface. The aperture rings is gone, the shutter speed dial is gone and neither had returned with the SL - the latest of these cameras. Lens design now includes digital correction.

 

If you want a classical UI concept, you'll need an M or (with compromises) a compact camera including the D-Lux, the X variations and the Q.

 

Fuji has gone the other way and re introduced aperture rings. The X-Pro2 even revives the embedded ISO dial within the shutter speed dial. Thank god, it's also possible to configure an X-Pro2 to limit yourself to shutter speed and aperture ignoring everything else.

 

I have been a long time Leica guy, but I have used other systems including SLR of course, MFT, Sony NEX and Fuji. I quite like Fuji for the way the camera handles and because they have ok lenses, some of which actually quite brilliant. They have also come a long way with their hybrid viewfinder which really is something, Leica should have built into their higher end cameras.

 

There is absolutely nothing the T does better than the X-Pro2. Nothing at all. 

And as I said: the Fuji lenses are quite ok. Granted, the Summicron-T 23 beats the Fuji 23/2, but I am not totally convinced any of the T zooms are worth the premium price.

 

As for the M lenses: they'll work on the X-Pro2 as well with the exception of anything wider than, say, 28mm. 

 

 

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Why does this matter? It isn't how much kit you carry that makes you a better photographer. It is what you do with it.

 

A core Leica design value is das Wesentliche a particular kind of minimalism. It isn't an excuse for we don't have a huge R&D budget. It is a guiding principle, a design philosophy. Feature for feature no Leica camera stands up to the feature packed models from Asia. Instead of getting on the same treadmill and trying to maintain feature parity with other similar cameras in the market, they focus on providing the photographer with what they need and spend time and R&D money to execute it very well. They aren't going to do as well in head to head reviews but as a creative tool, they certainly punch above their weight class. 

 

It is certainly true that Fuji has more lenses than Leica. (I kind of ran through their catalog when I wrote my previous email.) My rhetorical question is how does not having those lenses limit your ability to pursue your art? What fundamental limitation are you running into that cannot be overcome by learning to be a better photographer? das Wesentliche.

 

Well, das Wesentliche would be one camera and one lens, right?

 

And there is nothing preventing you from doing that with a Fuji as well, only you have 20+ lenses to choose from instead of 6...  

 

As far as lenses goes, choice is good IMO and the more options the better!

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If Leica has the wherewithal, the "user base" of the T has the capacity to encompass the users of the X2, X vario, X 113, DLux 109 and maybe even the V Lux 114.  They are mostly there as it is now with the lens selections with the T.  There is the 23mm for the X2 and X113 users, the 18-56 for the X Vario and D Lux 109 crowd. Perhaps add a superzoom for the V Lux users?  Keep the body similar and/or merge it with the X Vario interface, add a built in EVF, improve AF speed, and upgrade the sensor.  Seems like the 'solution' is very possible. This would make the T very competitive with Sony, Fuji, Olympus, etc. . . and might be much more efficient and quite cost effective from a production and marketing standpoint. 

 

Consolidation the X and the T lines would make sense to me personally but I am not an X-shooter, so I might not get the unique selling point that the X brings to the table.

Edited by JorisV
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Consolidation the X and the T lines would make sense to me personally but I am not an X-shooter, so I might not get the unique selling point that the X brings to the table.

 

The Q is wildly popular and successful.

 

Its user interface is mostly similar to the X2 (XE), X Vario and X 113, and D Lux 109.  Anyone having used one of those is immediately familiar with the Q's handling and vice versa. (Or, even crazier, what would it take to allow the user to have an option to press a button to select either of the operating systems - the T as we know it, or the more traditional system of the Q/X lines?)

 

Consider the savings in production costs were Leica to have a one-body solution for all of those users. (And, as you suggested, perhaps then delve more in diversity of lens production).

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