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quick question -- manual focus with SL


eamonhickey

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Hi All,

 

First post here, but have benefitted from this community's expertise many times when researching a Leica question in the past, so a belated thanks to you all. And I digitally "know" a few of you from other places around the Internet, so hello to those folks.

 

I've been using an SL for about 3 weeks, including some shooting with a 50mm Summicron M (I'm reviewing the camera for Imaging Resource). Just want to verify that I have not missed something: the manual focus assist magnification function is by default assigned to the bottom left function button on the camera back. Am I correct that this function cannot be assigned to any other button? (I haven't found a way, but want to be double-sure).

 

Thanks!

 

Eamon

 

 

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Hi All,

 

First post here, but have benefitted from this community's expertise many times when researching a Leica question in the past, so a belated thanks to you all. And I digitally "know" a few of you from other places around the Internet, so hello to those folks.

 

I've been using an SL for about 3 weeks, including some shooting with a 50mm Summicron M (I'm reviewing the camera for Imaging Resource). Just want to verify that I have not missed something: the manual focus assist magnification function is by default assigned to the bottom left function button on the camera back. Am I correct that this function cannot be assigned to any other button? (I haven't found a way, but want to be double-sure).

 

Thanks!

 

Eamon

 

 

Magnification assist (with two magnification steps) for manual focusing is indeed a non-assignable short-press on the bottom left button. However, with firmware 2.0 and later installed, when you're using an adapted lens the joystick button also provides magnification assist (it's a toggle: one click for maximum magnification, second click back to normal). 

 

This does not work for dedicated lenses because the joystick button is then assignable for various AF and AE operations. 

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However, with firmware 2.0 and later installed, when you're using an adapted lens the joystick button also provides magnification assist (it's a toggle: one click for maximum magnification, second click back to normal). 

 

 

Thank you very much indeed! It works nicely. A little chagrined I didn't figure it out myself, but glad I asked.

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This was one of the things what was fixed in the first firmware update that Leica issued and works very well.  Focus + recompose, which is what you need to do with the M series cameras does not always work well with fast lenses.  The SL allows these lenses to be focused off-centre much more accurately.

 

The firmware could be improved further: unlike the Sony A7 series, you can't use both focus peaking and the level or histogram at once, for example. The thread in this forum has dozens of other tweaks that users have suggested.

 

More generally, the SL is a great camera, but there is room for improvement:

 

* the sensor is very good, but a notch behind the Sony sensors.  Still, that not seem to hold back Canon sales, which also fail to match the Sony sensors.  Sony's IBIS and 42Mpx can be indispensible in some situations.

 

* the AF lens selection is limited and bulky (although both zoom lenses are surprisingly good and  may cover 85% of what you need for general shooting).  Access to the M, and other Leica lenses is helpful.  Adapting such lenses onto a Sony body is less satisfying and it is a pain not to have the right exif data for post-processsing.  For compact, high performance, albeit manual and not weather-sealed, shooting the SL with M lenses has no equal, unless you prefer the M240 rangefinder style shooting.  For specialist lenses (sports long toms, perspective control, etc) the DSLR still reigns, for now.

 

* AF is very good, but not quite up with the Sony (eg, Eye-AF).

 

* the flash system is limited and buggy, unless you use studio flashes in manual mode (in which case you might be better off with a studio camera of some sort)

 

* you will have your own views about the ergonomics.  I find the SL handling more agreeable than the Sony, eg, which is more "technical", rather than suited to the needs of photographic shooting

 

I love using my SL.  It remains to be seen whether the system can competes in tn market with the technological advances that the likes of Sony, Hasselblad and Fuji are deploying.  

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You also have focus peaking, I use either red or green and find it a great boon to getting critical focus, it helps me so much I hardly ever need to use magnification except on small objects in the studio.

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I hope that it's ok to also use this thread for posting my question: I'm also considering buying a Leica SL, coming from a Sony a7s, I am using a lot of Leica M-Glas wich I love, but I am fascinated by the simplicity and the much better ergonomics of the SL. 

 

Is it still the fact, that the focus point is reset to the center after moving it and hitting the shutter?

 

Are there any other hints, experiences, problems or recommendations... especially for using M-Lenses on a Leica SL?

 

Thanks for your answers in advance!

Edited by deep_blue
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I hope that it's ok to also use this thread for posting my question: I'm also considering buying a Leica SL, coming from a Sony a7s, I am using a lot of Leica M-Glas wich I love, but I am fascinated by the simplicity and the much better ergonomics of the SL. 

 

Is it still the fact, that the focus point is reset to the center after moving it and hitting the shutter?

 

Are there any other hints, experiences, problems or recommendations... especially for using M-Lenses on a Leica SL?

 

Thanks for your answers in advance!

 

Yes. It's still happens that way. Some like it that way. I don't. It'd be nice to have an option in the menu to have choice. Maybe on fw3.0?

 

Generally though, I find the SL easier to focus with M lenses. The VF has higher resolution and higher magnification. With fast lenses wide open I hardly need magnification and stopped down peaking does what I need it to. Magnification is still useful. You just won't need it as often as on the Sony.

 

Gordon

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You can magnify any area, even at the border or in the corners. But after taking a shot you start in the center again.

So the real problem is to get a switch to turn this behaviour on or off (stickyness of focus point /magnification point in manual mode).

I can work easily as it is now. But I understand that others would like it different. So I would also welcome the option to switch this on/off. I would not like to have it changed completely.

Edited by steppenw0lf
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You can magnify any area, even at the border or in the corners. But after taking a shot you start in the center again.

So the real problem is to get a switch to turn this behaviour on or off (stickyness of focus point /magnification point in manual mode).

I can work easily as it is now. But I understand that others would like it different. So I would also welcome the option to switch this on/off. I would not like to have it changed completely.

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You can magnify any area, even at the border or in the corners. But after taking a shot you start in the center again.

So the real problem is to get a switch to turn this behaviour on or off (stickyness of focus point /magnification point in manual mode).

I can work easily as it is now. But I understand that others would like it different. So I would also welcome the option to switch this on/off. I would not like to have it changed completely.

 

To further confuse things, the focus/mag point is sticky with the SL zoom lenses, and one-shot only with M or R primes.  It's anyone's guess what will happen when the new SL primes appear, but I think making it switchable will be a reasonable step at that time.

 

scott 

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To further confuse things, the focus/mag point is sticky with the SL zoom lenses, and one-shot only with M or R primes.  It's anyone's guess what will happen when the new SL primes appear, but I think making it switchable will be a reasonable step at that time.

 

scott 

 

 

I don't find this confusing at all.

 

Dedicated lenses (SL and T lenses) engage the AF system, which controls the focus point. Adapted lenses do not engage the AF system, so the body has no control of focusing point and resets to center when you enable magnification. I'm sure the new dedicated lenses will operate in exactly the same way as the current SL and T lenses. 

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Right.  The real difference in behavior is between autofocus and manual focus lenses.  Even with AF, I think the position of the active region controlled by the joystick should have controllable options -- sticky or recentering -- instead of the two different defaults that we have ended up with.

 

scott

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Having a "sticky" option is much needed with the manual lenses - that would cut down on button pressing / joy stick movement and shorten the manual focusing time.  Hopefully we'll see this firmware update sooner than later.

 

The other thing I'd like to see is a new M adapter that has a cam to register when the focus ring is turned.  In turn this would trigger auto magnify like we do with the M-P (Typ 240), Monochrom Typ 246, etc.  On the M-240 line, we can turn this feature on & off in the settings, so for those who don't like it, then no problem.  I like auto-magnify, so having this on the SL would be very nice as it would eliminate even more button presses.

 

If the SL had the "sticky" feature and improved M adapter, that is likely the tipping point where I could do away with owning a color M.  I'd really like to see a Monochrom SL, but I'm probably in some extreme minority on that wish :)

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The other thing I'd like to see is a new M adapter that has a cam to register when the focus ring is turned. In turn this would trigger auto magnify like we do with the M-P (Typ 240), Monochrom Typ 246, etc.

Rather than developing an all new adapter I would like Leica to implement this feature in software.

 

The camera recognizes what is in and out of focus (CDAF and focus peaking demonstrate this) so it can recognize when it's changing due to manual focusing of the lens. It also recognizes movement (the on-screen level shows this) so it should be able to differentiate between the point of focus changing due to manual focus or camera movement.

 

This method may be less successful at smaller apertures with larger DOF but then so is zooming in less useful typically.

Edited by LD_50
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As long as the SL is so new and has relatively few users compared to older platforms, these special "models" (black and white) are simply a waste of time.

Rather concentrate on the main thing: Survive by producing enough new lenses and a stable software (firmware).

And maybe later a high resolution model, if technology advances permit.

 

If anybody would only switch to the SL if these and those special wishes are fulfilled - then I am quite sure that he will never switch to the SL. Not even if they become reality.    :p

For me it is not clear if the SL survives the next ten years - even if currently it looks not so bad regarding the roadmap. And it is also not clear for me if I will be able to afford the next generations if prices are going higher and higher. And I would hate to have to switch to Sony in the end. (Or Hasselblad or even worse Fuji).

Edited by steppenw0lf
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As long as the SL is so new and has relatively few users compared to older platforms, these special "models" (black and white) are simply a waste of time.

Rather concentrate on the main thing: Survive by producing enough new lenses and a stable software (firmware).

And maybe later a high resolution model, if technology advances permit.

 

If anybody would only switch to the SL if these and those special wishes are fulfilled - then I am quite sure that he will never switch to the SL. Not even if they become reality.    :p

For me it is not clear if the SL survives the next ten years - even if currently it looks not so bad regarding the roadmap. And it is also not clear for me if I will be able to afford the next generations if prices are going higher and higher. And I would hate to have to switch to Sony in the end. (Or Hasselblad or even worse Fuji).

Leica should be able to accelerate firmware development while simultaneously filling out the lens lineup (and updating consumers on the roadmap). This strategy is what has made Fuji so popular in recent years. If they focus on the M, the SL/TL, and S lineups I don't see any reason this would be unachievable. A more open company culture that improves on consumer feedback would be much appreciated.

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Rather than developing an all new adapter I would like Leica to implement this feature in software.

The camera recognizes what is in and out of focus (CDAF and focus peaking demonstrate this) so it can recognize when it's changing due to manual focusing of the lens. It also recognizes movement (the on-screen level shows this) so it should be able to differentiate between the point of focus changing due to manual focus or camera movement.

This method may be less successful at smaller apertures with larger DOF but then so is zooming in less useful typically.

Um, no. You're not understanding CDAF and focus peaking.

 

CDAF never knows whether a static focus setting is correct or not. CDAF works by jiggling the focus back and forth very very quickly and sampling the contrast until the contrast level peaks. Then it stops.This is obviously impossible with a manual focus lens.

 

Similarly, the focus peaking display knows nothing about whether the focus setting is correct or not. It simply highlights the most strongly in-focus edges and lets you determine whether they represent sharp focus.

 

Neither system has a clue when you've turned the focusing ring on an M or R lens. At all.

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Um, no. You're not understanding CDAF and focus peaking.

CDAF never knows whether a static focus setting is correct or not. CDAF works by jiggling the focus back and forth very very quickly and sampling the contrast until the contrast level peaks. Then it stops.This is obviously impossible with a manual focus lens.

Similarly, the focus peaking display knows nothing about whether the focus setting is correct or not. It simply highlights the most strongly in-focus edges and lets you determine whether they represent sharp focus.

Neither system has a clue when you've turned the focusing ring on an M or R lens. At all.

Agreed, CDAF samples contrast by moving focus back and forth. When manually focusing a lens, I believe the camera can analyze the scene and see the contrast changing, much as it would to provide AF instructions to the lens.

 

I did not state focus peaking determines anything about what is correct. If the camera identifies high contrast edges to highlight, it can certainly recognize those areas changing either via movement of the camera or subject, or via manually focusing a lens.

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As long as the SL is so new and has relatively few users compared to older platforms, these special "models" (black and white) are simply a waste of time.

Rather concentrate on the main thing: Survive by producing enough new lenses and a stable software (firmware).

And maybe later a high resolution model, if technology advances permit.

 

If anybody would only switch to the SL if these and those special wishes are fulfilled - then I am quite sure that he will never switch to the SL. Not even if they become reality.    :p

For me it is not clear if the SL survives the next ten years - even if currently it looks not so bad regarding the roadmap. And it is also not clear for me if I will be able to afford the next generations if prices are going higher and higher. And I would hate to have to switch to Sony in the end. (Or Hasselblad or even worse Fuji).

I fail to understand you, Stefan. Does the SL not perform to your liking? If it does, why do you need to think about what's going to be happening ten years from now? It will still perform just as it does now. If it doesn't perform to your liking, well, why do you keep it now? Better to sell it on and move on to something else that performs more to your liking while it still has some value, eh?

 

The SL has barely been in users' hands for a year. Leica has just released a roadmap of lens introductions for the next two to three years, they look great, and more will follow that. And you're not sure that the system will be around in ten years? To quote Darth Vader, "Your lack of faith disturbs me." ;-)

 

The Sony A7 system is what I have doubts will be around in ten years. Sony has a long tradition of completely dumping one thing for something else at semi-random intervals. They'll soon release the A9, or whatever the followon is called, and the A7 will linger a little while and then probably disappear. It's happened over and over again in the past decade.

 

Leica is much more stable and consistent than that. :-) (So is Hasselblad for that matter. I expect the X1D to be the first in their new compact EVF line, which will be around for a good while. Just like the HD series cameras have been around a good while now. Etc.)

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