"The consumer camera is dead" very interesting Youtube video

[willeica]

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I totally disagree with the first sentence for the reasons I've already outlined in my previous post.  In my opinion, you are wrong to suggest that 'automation' negates technical appreciation in image creation.  Of course it requires 'an entirely different way of thinking' to using a more conventional camera, but what exactly is your point?  You are contradicting yourself.

 

I totally agree with Honcho. While I use 'proper cameras' most of the time, I recognise image making is all about creating pictures. It does not matter whether I use a pinhole camera, a smartphone or a fancy professional camera. Some people can use their technical prowess to create fine pictures but others can create equally valid images without any technical knowledge. Sometimes their pictures can be better precisely because of their lack of technical knowledge. They simply do not recognise notions of composition and selective focus etc and because of that they create great images.  We need to get over any notions of smugness or superiority because we have Leica cameras and respect that image makers are essentially doing the same thing. Making rules for creating images is a 19th century art salon notion ( rules of thirds etc) and it has done a lot of damage at camera clubs with judges now being 'trained' to all produce the same viewpoints, resulting in stereotypical camera club photos. Thankfully, the younger generation have decided that creating images is what they themselves can make with whatever device they have in their hands.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

If your head is repeatedly making contact with selfie sticks it might not be the Chinese tourists who have zero spatial awareness.

The contacts occur when the selfie stick misuser, suddenly swivels round, clobbering everyone within the radius of their stupid stick. if you are in a crowded train, you can't duck out of the way, even if you see it coming. Disney have now banned the use of these moronic devices in their parks, because they had led to a significant number of injuries, sometimes to the stick user and sometimes to a third party.

 

Hoist with your own petard - a selfie stick user during a thunderstorm in the Brecon Beacons in Wales this year, was killed when lightning hit his selfie stick - one for the Darwin awards I think. 

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[wlaidlaw]

There is something very narcissistic about constantly taking photographs of yourself in different situations. "Look here is me in Paris" etc. 

[honcho]

There is something very narcissistic about constantly taking photographs of yourself in different situations. "Look here is me in Paris" etc. 

 

As someone who formally photographs many hundreds of Chinese people (and many other nationalities) every year at graduation ceremonies, I can confirm the only time you will see a Chinese person smile in front of a camera is when it is mounted on a selfie stick and they are holding it.

 

I see an opportunity here for an improved workflow.  Mind your head.

[pgk]

I totally disagree with the first sentence for the reasons I've already outlined in my previous post.  In my opinion, you are wrong to suggest that 'automation' negates technical appreciation in image creation.  Of course it requires 'an entirely different way of thinking' to using a more conventional camera, but what exactly is your point?  You are contradicting yourself.

 

I can pick up a smartphone and take a picture with it. Someone who has only ever used a smartphone would struggle to pick up say a Leica M and appreciate how to take a picture with it. The technicalities of a simple Leica M are totally different from those of a smartphone. Being able to use an automated system does not confer the technical ability to use a manual one. What could be simpler or more obvious? Where's the contradiction?

[pgk]

Making rules for creating images is a 19th century art salon notion ( rules of thirds etc) and it has done a lot of damage at camera clubs with judges now being 'trained' to all produce the same viewpoints, resulting in stereotypical camera club photos. Thankfully, the younger generation have decided that creating images is what they themselves can make with whatever device they have in their hands.

 

But William, using a smartphone (even extremely well) places 'rules' upon the photographer just as much as any other image creating device, they are simply different 'rules'. Anyone who thoroughly understands the equipment that they are working with will use it to its full capability, but it will nevertheless be limited to its capability. To move beyond its capability and use another image creating device may well require knowledge that such a device cannot convey. I have a fried who is an advertising photographer and he has produced a book on iPhone photography. I doubt the abilities of an iPhone only photographer to write a book on anything but iPhone photography.

 

Sophisticated purpose built cameras and Smartphones are equally valid image creating devices but one is far more limiting in its ability to convey a more versatile ability than the other.

[honcho]

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I can pick up a smartphone and take a picture with it. Someone who has only ever used a smartphone would struggle to pick up say a Leica M and appreciate how to take a picture with it.

 

Why should they need to know how to use a Leica and why should they need any kind of appreciation of making images with a Leica to appreciate the creating of an image with a smart phone? In each of your posts you imply that unless a smart phone photographer has a working knowledge or practical experience of a conventional camera, then they cannot be taken as seriously as one who does. You aren't making much sense.

[pebbles]

How many more times does it have to be said. Photography is about art not about equipment. Why should someone want to sketch with pen and ink when they could use acrylic paints ? The article was rather pointless.

[pgk]

In each of your posts you imply that unless a smart phone photographer has a working knowledge or practical experience of a conventional camera, then they cannot be taken as seriously as one who does.

 

No I am not - if you want to read that into my posts do so, but it was neither stated not implied. My point was and is that Smartphones are fundamentally limiting. If someone doesn't want to progress beyond them, then that's fine and many don't, but if anyone is really serious about exploring image creation then I would anticipate that the limitations of a Smartphone will finally become frustrating, and Smartphones do not supply sufficient technical expertise to move forward, just as Box Brownies didn't (did any serious image creator spend their whole life shooting with Box Brownies?).

[Herr Barnack]

The younger generation has learned photography using smart phones and snap chat?  Really?  I would not call that learning photography.   On the other-hand, the camera industry is certainly taking a big hit as a result of all these instant gratification all in one electronic pocket gadgets.  We now have an endless parade of images over the internet, but sadly, these are 3 second images. What I mean by that is that they are gone after 3 seconds of viewing, and who knows when they will ever be viewed again?  For those of us who take photography seriously, it is a sad state of affairs; consumerism is killing the art of photography. 

 

I'm not enthralled by the brave new world that has emerged around taking photographs, and for me, photography will continue to be about producing images with a soul, and this is a two step process.  First you make the exposure, what Ansel Adams would call the equivalent of a musical composition, then you make your print (after thoughtful Post Processing) what Anselm Adams would call your musical performance.  This you don't learn with snap chat and smart phones; this requires commitment, patience, and a willingness to invest the necessary time.  I hope and pray that at least in the remainder of my lifetime, my photography will never be driven by the endless voracious appetite of consumerism, and the latest fad moving us ever so quickly towards oblivion.

 

A couple of observations -

"...consumerism is killing the art of photography..."  I don't think consumerism is killing photography as much as the demands of the masses are killing photography.  These demands seem to be - based on all available evidence - (1.) convenience (AKA letting the phone do their thinking for them regarding exposure, focus, focal length, etc.), (2.) instant gratification, (3.) the need to be seen as "cool" and "living a fabulous lifestyle" (AKA emotional neediness for the approval of other people), (4.) narcissism (5.) competing against the peer group in terms of who can spew the largest volume of selfies on social media sites, and (6.) the need to have the latest, greatest, coolest pocket sized electronic trinket (AKA iPhone) - which is undoubtedly a type of consumerism.  That having been said, I think that issues 1-5 far outweigh issue 6 in terms of having a negative impact on both the current and future state of image making.

 

All cameras are not created equal.  To try to claim that an iPhone is on a level playing field with an 8x10 view camera, a 120/220 format film camera, an M Monochrom, a M-P 240 or a Hasselblad X1D‑50c is beyond nonsense - yet that is the underlying implication of those who preach the so-called democratization of photography that they claim is the result of the avalanche of iPhones in the marketplace. 

 

There is more to producing the images with a soul that wilfredo refers to than holding an iPhone above your head and mindlessly pressing a button; yet this is the kind of photography that the vast majority of iPhone photographers engage in - and with predictable results.  That type of photography may satisfy the wants and needs (see 1-6 above) of the masses, but it does not hold a candle to the results produced by a committed photographer who hones his/her craft and vision relentlessly over a period of decades as have many of us here.  All photographs are not created equal.  Some are visual twaddle; some are transcendent. 

 

I will finish with a quote from the late David Vestal:

"Compensating for lack of skill with technology is progress towards mediocrity. As technology advances, craftsmanship recedes. As technology increases our possibilities, we use them less resourcefully. The one thing we’ve gained is spontaneity, which is useless without perception."

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Carlos Danger

[pgk]

There is more to producing the images with a soul that wilfredo refers to than holding an iPhone above your head and mindlessly pressing a button ....

 

Quite, but a tool of any description in the hands of someone who understands image creation can yield surprising results (of course there are exceptions ): http://www.juliancalverley.com/books/iphoneonly/

[honcho]

....... But what they do not do is install a technical appreciation of image creation.

 

This is what you said.  Your implication, if not outright dismissal, of a smart phone user's ability to appreciate the (your term) 'pe-visualisation' or creation of an image is somehow impaired by having no prior experience of photography by the use of a more conventional camera.  It's a point of view that was described earlier in the thread as 'smugness' and I absolutely agree with that description.

 

One of my friends, well known within BIPP, gained a second Fellowship with his iPhone art.  I bring this up, not to open up a pointless off-topic debate about photographic A's & Q's, but to reinforce my point that in the right hands, smart phone creativity is only limited by the person using it.  You are not going to convince me by anything you've said here that a smart phone user needs experience of conventional photography to appreciate technical image creation.  It's nonsense and I'll leave you with it.

[pgk]

One of my friends, well known within BIPP, gained a second Fellowship with his iPhone art. 

 

You are not going to convince me by anything you've said here that a smart phone user needs experience of conventional photography to appreciate technical image creation.  It's nonsense and I'll leave you with it.

 

Really? Don't you think that you've just shot yourself in the foot or did your friend have no prior experience of photography?

 

Come on Honcho. Smartphone ARE fundamentally limiting. Existing experience helps but they are what they are. Consumer cameras are what they are too (remember the title of this thread?). Both are very capable in the right hands but few users, if any, absolutely stick with either when advancing in their image making. Smartphones are replacing Consumer Cameras for a whole host of reasons but I'll bet that you don't solely use a Smartphone for all the reasons that I've stated.

[wlaidlaw]

I think one point is that I enjoy the process of taking photographs with my various Leica, other rangefinder cameras and Rolleiflex TLR's, that I can never conceive of getting from a phone. It might take me half an hour or more to set up a landscape shot, experimenting with different filters, stoppers and polarisers, all of which is hugely enjoyable. Taking an Instagram picture and thinking shall I apply one of their standard filters, just leaves me cold. 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

But William, using a smartphone (even extremely well) places 'rules' upon the photographer just as much as any other image creating device, they are simply different 'rules'. Anyone who thoroughly understands the equipment that they are working with will use it to its full capability, but it will nevertheless be limited to its capability. To move beyond its capability and use another image creating device may well require knowledge that such a device cannot convey. I have a fried who is an advertising photographer and he has produced a book on iPhone photography. I doubt the abilities of an iPhone only photographer to write a book on anything but iPhone photography.

 

Sophisticated purpose built cameras and Smartphones are equally valid image creating devices but one is far more limiting in its ability to convey a more versatile ability than the other.

 

Some people like to be limited and get equally valid photos. Most non 'proper' photographers, which is well over 90% of the people on the planet, care nothing about the techniques of photography but know when they like a photo irrespective of IQ, composition etc. I use Leica and other cameras because of certain qualities and possibilities that they give me and also because I can use them. This gives me satisfaction as a hobby. The OP in this case shows a video which correctly identifies why the consumer camera market has collapsed and gives correct reasons as to why this is so. 

 

This discussion is getting a bit circular, so I will end by quoting from 'Let's Call The Whole Thing Off' by the Gershwins

 

You say either and I say either

You say neither and I say neither

Either, either neither, neither

Let's call the whole thing off

You like potato and I like potahto

You like tomato and I like tomahto

Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto

Let's call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off

Then we must part

And oh, if we ever part

then that might break my heart

So if you like pyjamas and I like pyjahmas

I'll wear pyjamas and give up pyajahmas

For we know we need each other so we

Better call the whole thing off

Let's call the whole thing off

You say laughter and I say larfter

You say after and I say arfter

Laughter, larfter after arfter

Let's call the whole thing off

You like vanilla and I like vanella

You saspiralla, and I saspirella

Vanilla vanella chocolate strawberry

Let's call the whole thing off

William

[honcho]

did your friend have no prior experience of photography?

 

 

 His iPhone work is not related to any other photography he does, which is my point.  You really should make an effort to see for yourself what is going on beyond your own smart phone experience.

[almoore]

There is more to producing the images with a soul that wilfredo refers to than holding an iPhone above your head and mindlessly pressing a button; yet this is the kind of photography that the vast majority of iPhone photographers engage in - and with predictable results.  That type of photography may satisfy the wants and needs (see 1-6 above) of the masses, but it does not hold a candle to the results produced by a committed photographer who hones his/her craft and vision relentlessly over a period of decades as have many of us here.  All photographs are not created equal.  Some are visual twaddle; some are transcendent. 

 

But what is that 'more' that's needed to produce 'images with a soul'?

 

I doubt very much that the ability to turn a manual focus ring until a rangefinder patch aligns adds 'soul' to an image. The decades of commitment that you cite might help to refine the vision of a photographer, but they might just as easily leave him/her jaded and predictable. If hard work and experience were the key to powerful photography, then we'd see a constant improvement in people's work that seldom exists.

 

Look at the output of great photographers and you'll tend to see rapid early progress, followed by a plateau of success and a decline that kicks in well before the physical aging process becomes limiting.