Threatening Letter from LFI

[Guest]

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If someone wants to sell cars to the UK, Ireland or other countries with left-hand traffic, he should be able to provide a model, in which the steering wheel is mounted on the conventional side there.

Exceptions for the few fans of extravagances are permitted - if the authorities allow.

[lct]

[...] I had linked to the subscription terms for the LFI right on the first page of this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/263758-threatening-letter-from-lfi/page-1?do=findComment&comment=3100453. If you actually look at the terms you will see right away that it's not meters long as some will have it here.

 

Thank you pop but there is a trap here or, at best, an unintended contradiction between the "subscription renewal" page and the LFI's sentence according to which it is "not necessary to order new subscriptions". In such a mess, there is no clear acceptance for a contract renewal as long as the renewal page is not issued by the customer. Then the latter has nothing to cancel for the simple reason that the contract has not been renewed at all. It is incredible that a Leica subsidiary can threaten its clients on weak basis like that. Time to clean up some backyard here if you ask me.

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[pop]

Out of curiosity: How are insurance contracts handled in different countries? Does the insurance automatically end at some predefined point in time, placing the obligation of prolonging  on the customer and leaving him without coverage when he fails to prolong?

[LocalHero1953]

My home insurance, travel insurance and hire car insurance all renew automatically, but are all paid for by direct debit, so no renewal invoice is issued (other than as a formality). The two go together. I can't say what would happen if I had paid for them by cheque, which would be the situation comparable to a magazine subscription paid as a one-off.

[jaapv]

Over here and I presume in Germany as well, direct debit is normally preceded by a formal invoice, usually in the form of an announcement of the intention to debit. Furthermore a direct debit can be reversed by the customer, so I don't think that the way the debt is paid has any connection to the obligation to pay or not.

 

However, given the fact the LFI  subscription can be cancelled at any time after the initial two year period with a refund of unused issues, I think that the only problem lies in the wording of the letter. 

That gives rise to the question: should overseas customers have some consideration for German business conventions or should the German company adapt their approach to  foreign (to them) customs. A bit of both, I should think..

[lct]

Not sure if there is any German usage in play here, hopefully not i would say, but no usage can prevail against a mandatory law anyway and the applicable law in Europe is that of the habitual residence of the customer.

[jaapv]

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As I said, the most simple solution would be a mail saying: "You're due for an automatic renewal, please let us know whether we can bill you."

Unfortunately that is not the standard in  Germany, nor in my country, I might add.

[lct]

I am not LFI's attorney Jaap but there is no "due" renewal if it is not accepted by the consumer. So if there is something useful to do here it is to stop those useless legal threats in the first place and to abstain from sending any invoice w/o making sure that the renewal has been duly accepted by the consumer. It is not rocket science every lawyer will explain how to do that. The key word is acceptance here. No acceptance, no contract.

[jaapv]

Well, whilst not being a lawyer, I should think that accepting the terms as outlined would imply acceptance of an automatic continuation. On the content of the letter I can only agree, however, over here they are not unusual, and in Germany quite common.

[willeica]

Offer and acceptance procedures for contracts can vary between jurisdictions, but once a consumer has indicated non acceptance of a further contract period, to try and enforce that further period when the supplier can simply stop sending the magazine is simply very poor customer relations. I am not sure why I continue to subscribe to LFI; maybe I am afraid that I might miss something.  I find that society magazines are much better, particularly the 'Viewfinder' magazine published by LHSA. They are much more focussed on the interests of the average amateur. The technical articles in LFI, which seem to have been translated from German, are very hard going and I mostly ignore them.

 

William

[IkarusJohn]

Out of curiosity: How are insurance contracts handled in different countries? Does the insurance automatically end at some predefined point in time, placing the obligation of prolonging  on the customer and leaving him without coverage when he fails to prolong?

Yes, it lapses.

 

If you pay you premium on invoice, you get a reminder, then another, telling you you cover will expire at 4.00pm on the given day if the premium isn't paid. I know of no country anywhere in the World where an insurance company will insure you if the premium isn't paid. They will usually reinstate your policy from the expiry date if you paid late, but if you had an insurable event, then paid th e overdue premium - no cover.

 

Back to magazines, regardless of the contract terms, I cannot imagine a court enforcing a contract for the supply of a magazine where renewal is deemed, perpetually, where the subscriber consciously and intentionally stopps paying jthe renewal subscription. At common law and civil law, the requirement for consensus ad idem is missing.

[Edward Louis Marit]

Out of curiosity: How are insurance contracts handled in different countries? Does the insurance automatically end at some predefined point in time, placing the obligation of prolonging on the customer and leaving him without coverage when he fails to prolong?

That's exactly how it works. For my home insurance, car insurance, camera insurance, and professional liability insurance for my company ( I am an architect.)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pico]

This Leica forum has an automatic re-subscription for Premium members and I appreciate it.

Edited August 27, 2016 by pico

[IkarusJohn]

This Leica forum has an automatic re-subscription for Premium members and I appreciate it.

Of course - but that's just setting up auto-renewal with a credit card. That's not the issue.

[mjh]

The technical articles in LFI, which seem to have been translated from German, are very hard going and I mostly ignore them.

Many of the technical articles are indeed translated from German, with the exception of mine – my contributions to LFI are written in English and only then translated into German (by me).

Edited August 27, 2016 by mjh

[pico]

Many of the technical articles are indeed translated from German, with the exception of mine – my contributions to LFI are written in English and only then translated into German (by me).

Show off!

[jaapv]

Many of the technical articles are indeed translated from German, with the exception of mine – my contributions to LFI are written in English and only then translated into German (by me).

Which makes them amongst the most readable

[jaapv]

Yes, it lapses.

 

If you pay you premium on invoice, you get a reminder, then another, telling you you cover will expire at 4.00pm on the given day if the premium isn't paid. I know of no country anywhere in the World where an insurance company will insure you if the premium isn't paid. They will usually reinstate your policy from the expiry date if you paid late, but if you had an insurable event, then paid th e overdue premium - no cover.

 

Back to magazines, regardless of the contract terms, I cannot imagine a court enforcing a contract for the supply of a magazine where renewal is deemed, perpetually, where the subscriber consciously and intentionally stopps paying jthe renewal subscription. At common law and civil law, the requirement for consensus ad idem is missing.

In our jurisprudence the cover will lapse but the obligation to pay will remain. In the end, even if you have lost your cover, the court will order you to pay. After which, of course, the insurance will be reinstated. But it will not work to terminate the insurance. That can only be done in writing in the way stipulated in the contract, i.e.  a certain period before continuation or if the insurer changes the conditions or price or if you are no longer in possession of the insured object. How do I know? Don't ask

[Guest]

Many of the technical articles are indeed translated from German, with the exception of mine – my contributions to LFI are written in English and only then translated into German (by me).

Personally I think you do a great job. So does Arleen in the office ( spelling prob wrong) who has always sorted out any minor problems very fast and with a cheerful email. Reading through this thread I think a lot of people just like moaning.

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[AlanJW]

This thread reminds me of a joke in which a customer tips a taxi driver $1.00 on a one dollar ride (yes, it is an old joke).  In other words, no tip.  The customer says to the driver, "Is that correct?".   The driver says, "It's correct but it ain't right."

 

Why does it even matter whether LFI has some legal right under contract or otherwise to compel a customer to pay.  For a magazine to threaten legal action on a subscription, "ain't right."  It is also stupid, given that there are probably a hundred other ways to handle a nonpaying subscriber other than suing, no matter what German law says and no matter whether it applies or not.