Threatening Letter from LFI

[bill_murray]

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Inertia Selling, which is what this LFI practice is, was outlawed in the UK by the Consumer Protection Unfair Trading Regulations, 2008. Those regs. sought to stop businesses treating customers unfairly, which is precisely what LFI are doing. It is an indefensible practice.

 

Japp and Pop can dance on the head of an ever smaller pin defending the legalities across the world, but it is the reputational harm to Leica that is done by their association with this sharp practice that the forum, and it's moderators, should be concerned about.

[pop]

If you don't like or understand their terms, don't deal with them. Make sure you know the terms before signing. Do not presume that terms are the same all over the world. Caveat emptor.

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[earleygallery]

Where did you find those terms?

On this page they state otherwise:

 

To subscribe you must first make payment. They will automatically renew your subscription and deduct payment from your account unless you notify them otherwise. If you have made a one off payment then they can't / shouldn't renew your subscription until you've paid. If you don't pay they should take that as non renewal.

 

I can understand the requirement to notify them if you don't want them to automatically deduct the renewal subs from your bank account, but if LFI choose to send magazines out to people who haven't paid the subscription that's their choice.

 

The OP says he received "several letters urging me to renew and offers of free gifts" so presumably LFI took his non payment as non renewal. 

 

Sorry but I really don't think LFI are running their service very efficiently and threats of legal action are just silly in this context, and don't reflect well on the Leica brand.

Edited August 24, 2016 by earleygallery

[lct]

Useless and unfriendly. Just an obsolete behavior if you ask me.

[jaapv]

As is "Sorry me foreigner, me no understand"...

[lct]

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.

[pop]

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Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.

Now, which side of the deal do you want this to apply to?

[jaapv]

To subscribe you must first make payment. They will automatically renew your subscription and deduct payment from your account unless you notify them otherwise. If you have made a one off payment then they can't / shouldn't renew your subscription until you've paid. If you don't pay they should take that as non renewal.

 

I can understand the requirement to notify them if you don't want them to automatically deduct the renewal subs from your bank account, but if LFI choose to send magazines out to people who haven't paid the subscription that's their choice.

 

The OP says he received "several letters urging me to renew and offers of free gifts" so presumably LFI took his non payment as non renewal. 

 

Sorry but I really don't think LFI are running their service very efficiently and threats of legal action are just silly in this context, and don't reflect well on the Leica brand.

Well, yes, maybe they should from a marketing  point of view, but that is not in the conditions you agreed to when ticking the "accept" box. Those require a written and timely cancellation. There are plenty of subscriptions that work that way.

 

The point is that all Internet companies require a ticking of a box or clicking an accept button. By doing so -and we all do without thinking- you accept their contract. And it always contains the applicable legislation. In a German contract it is mostly even linked to a location, and one would have to travel to the town of the applicable court in order to participate in a case.

At the very least it will force a court in your country to try the case by the laws from the legislation you agreed to, but mostly they will just confirm the ruling of the foreign court.

 

Most people are not aware of this, but it does pose a risk in international Internet commerce.

[lct]

Now, which side of the deal do you want this to apply to?

 

If this is not obvious to you when reading what i said above i've reached the limits of my answering capabilities i'm afraid.  

[earleygallery]

Well, yes, maybe they should from a marketing  point of view, but that is not in the conditions you agreed to when ticking the "accept" box. Those require a written and timely cancellation. There are plenty of subscriptions that work that way.

 

The point is that all Internet companies require a ticking of a box or clicking an accept button. By doing so -and we all do without thinking- you accept their contract. And it always contains the applicable legislation. In a German contract it is mostly even linked to a location, and one would have to travel to the town of the applicable court in order to participate in a case.

At the very least it will force a court in your country to try the case by the laws from the legislation you agreed to, but mostly they will just confirm the ruling of the foreign court.

 

Most people are not aware of this, but it does pose a risk in international Internet commerce.

 

As I've said Jaap, they require payment for renewal. No payment - no renewal. No payment - no magazine!

 

LFI even apparently acknowledged that the OP hadn't renewed before sending their legal threat! I'd love to see they take that one to court.

[bill_murray]

If you don't like or understand their terms, don't deal with them. Make sure you know the terms before signing. Do not presume that terms are the same all over the world. Caveat emptor.

Jeepers, you really do think that "buyer beware" is a valid customer engagement technique. That was discredited in the 1950's .. and is simply indefensible.

Edited August 24, 2016 by bill_murray

[jaapv]

Jeepers, you really do think that "buyer beware" is a valid customer engagement technique. That was discredited in the 1950's .. and is simply indefensible.

You'll avoid eBay, I suppose?

[pop]

Jeepers, you really do think that "buyer beware" is a valid customer engagement technique. ....

No, I do not think so. However, once there is a dispute about the terms, the party who did not read them certainly is at a disadvantage.

[jaapv]

To subscribe you must first make payment. They will automatically renew your subscription and deduct payment from your account unless you notify them otherwise. If you have made a one off payment then they can't / shouldn't renew your subscription until you've paid. If you don't pay they should take that as non renewal.

 

I can understand the requirement to notify them if you don't want them to automatically deduct the renewal subs from your bank account, but if LFI choose to send magazines out to people who haven't paid the subscription that's their choice.

 

The OP says he received "several letters urging me to renew and offers of free gifts" so presumably LFI took his non payment as non renewal. 

 

Sorry but I really don't think LFI are running their service very efficiently and threats of legal action are just silly in this context, and don't reflect well on the Leica brand.

Over the years LFI never deducted anything from my account. I paid on invoice.

 

The system of subscription you describe is indeed the British one. British magazines I subscribe to work that way.Most annoying, suddenly I have to complain that I did not receive the last issue and it turns out my subscription has lapsed without my noticing.

 

In most countries in Europe, however, a subscription can only be cancelled by active cancellation, not by non-payment. If you subscribe through a British reseller, it will be as you describe. If you subscribe directly abroad, you will be locked into the system of the country you are dealing with.

[lct]

You don't get it Jaap. Read what John wrote above. In European law, the applicable law is that of the habitual residence of the customer (Rome convention, art. 5 - http://tinyurl.com/zokenqe). Those legal discussions are useless anyway since LFI will never sue anybody in any country. Too little money involved obviously. Stopping this legal threat nonsense is the only way to go IMHO.

[jaapv]

Yes - but you give that right away as soon as you agree to the conditions of sale that specify the applicable legislation... That is a legally binding contract.

And that always happens.

There is no European Law BTW. That is a Brexit myth, only believed in the UK. Note that you quote an international Treaty, only valid in the participating countries because it was ratified in those participating countries,  not a law.

[lct]

Depends on the applicable law Jaap. There are attorneys here, why not listening to what they say? LFI has better things to do than wasting its time and money in attorney fees way higher than any subscription you can trust me. 

[jaapv]

And then you run into the next problem - there is nothing in UK Law AFAIK preventing parties from entering into a contract that can only be ended by formal cancellation.The argument that it is not usual to do so with subscriptions is certain to fail.

[lct]

OK i give up you are a better lawyer than i am.

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[Guest]

In Germany such itself automatically prolonging magazine subscriptions are often referred to as "subscription traps".

This is particularly troublesome when family members must try laboriously to cancel the subscriptions of persons recently deceased.

Often the descendants can hardly distinguish between them unknown subscribed journals, magazines of clubs and associations or advertising magazines.

At a certain age one should with regard to his heirs only read the magazines, which can be reached by walk at the next railway station kiosk.