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B&W - Shoot and Convert or M246 - Monochrome?


EdwardM

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Hello all, more and more i detect that i like to convert my color photos in to the black and white.
Some scenes are more interesting in black and white mode rather than colored.
Based on that I'm thinking about Monochrome.
I have seen some works of russian Leica ambassador Maxim Marmur and his photos in Black and White just awesome.
He use M-246. my understanding is that M246 does not have AA filter and this is the key reason of high dynamic range and crispy detailed snapshots of the M-246.
What would you do? 

Thanks a lot

ed

Edited by EdwardM
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None of the digital M's have an AA filter.  The Monochrom versions (one M9-based, one M240-based) also lack the bayer array for color, yielding higher resolution.

 

There have been many posts, and many comparisons on the subject.  Here are the results of some tests by David Farkas...  http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/06/bw-iso-showdown-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m-monochrom-m9-vs-m-typ-240/

 

At the end of the day, it depends on the skill (and needs) of the user.  There are many variables in the overall workflow from camera to screen to editing to print and to display.  No two people will likely produce the same results, intentionally or not.  But it helps to start with a good file.

 

Keep in mind, too, that one can use color channels for post-processing b/w with the color based M files, while the Monochrom files will only respond to use of colored filters at capture.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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M240 with conversion to B&W is will give excellent results. It has also the advantage that you can decide in PP if you need color or not. Some photo’s will work only in color, which is something the M 246 can not do.

 

Do you own a M240 also? And are you prepared to take both M246 and 240 with you?

I do not own the M246, but I face a similar dilemma when taking my M8 and M9. The M8 is mostly used for B&W. The M9 has FF and better colors...

 

If I only take the M8, it feels limited, even though 10MP are enough most of the time and I could do with the colors of the M8 if need be. It takes courage to go for a limited solution… But working within the limiations of your gear is all about Leica.

If you want a multi tool, take a DSLR with a 20x zoom…  ;) but that is probably the opposite of what you want.

 

The M246 is, like the M8, but on an other level, a limited camera, but what it does well can not be done with any FF to date.

So if B&W is really your thing, it can make sense...

 

Why not try shoot B&W exclusively for a while with whatever gear you have now, and see if you miss B&W.

 

An other option is to go for the old Monochrom. You can always resell it for about the same in case you want to go to color again. Or in case you are so happy that you want to upgrade to the M 246. That is what I would do...

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Hello all, more and more i detect that i like to convert my color photos in to the black and white.

Some scenes are more interesting in black and white mode rather than colored.

Based on that I'm thinking about Monochrome.

I have seen some works of russian Leica ambassador Maxim Marmur and his photos in Black and White just awesome.

He use M-246. my understanding is that M246 does not have AA filter and this is the key reason of high dynamic range and crispy detailed snapshots of the M-246.

What would you do? 

Thanks a lot

ed

I can only speak from my perspective. I much prefer monochrome photography, and once I had the M246 I never picked up my 240 again and traded it in for a Q. The difference is worth it if you love monochrome. Look at the Monochrome sub forum here for more info and examples of photos.
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From a technical standpoint, if all you intend to shoot is B&W, or if you're willing to spend that much for a dedicated B&W camera as well as another one for color, and perhaps carry both, then the Monochrom seems like the best choice.  I enjoy B&W and do a lot of it, but the aforementioned criteria do not apply to me, therefore I stick with the 240. 

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At this point the M240 has the best features for a complete M camera, colour, live view, EVF support, very smooth shutter release, and B&W conversion if required.

 

BUT a Monochrom is soooo attractive and soooo addictive.....just love mine.

 

The MM V1 is a nice complementary piece for a M240, less money than a M246, smaller and 100 gms lighter, and the results are outstanding   :D

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Ed

 

I have both the M240 and the M246.  When I first bought into Leica I was torn between the original Monochrom and the M240.  At the end of the day I picked the M240 and was very happy with the decision.  I do like to shoot both color and BW . . . but always thought about the Monochrom.  I bought the M246 and am just blown away with the prints I can make with camera.  It is a bit of a challenge to use.  Digital cameras are very forgiving by nature and we can fix a lot post production.  The result, at least for me, was that I became sloppy making my photographs because I could fix an image in post.  Shooting with the M246 this isn't as true.  There is plenty of latitude in shadow areas but you get the best results getting everything right when you shoot the initial image.  You have to think about colored filters with this camera where you can mimic the effect of a filter for a M240 file when converting to black and white.  All that said, I use the Monochrom more than the M240.  I just like BW more.  If in doubt rent or borrow one and give it a try.

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I fully agree about the avoidance of sloppyness. I think the best results come from the best technical photographs. In this digital age it is still worth it to get it right in the camera. "fixing in post" always loses quality. In this I feel supported by Jeff Schewe in his : " the Digital Negative" *  , where he points out that the principle of GIGO does apply.

 

 

*an essential must-read for any serious digital photographer IMO. It answers about 90% of postprocessing and workflow questions that we see in this forum.

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*an essential must-read for any serious digital photographer IMO. It answers about 90% of postprocessing and workflow questions that we see in this forum.

 

 

OK, that's one of the more inexpensive photography related purchases I've made.  Let's see what I can learn.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I took some very satisfying B&W shots in-camera with my M 240. With a friend we made a "just for the hell of it" comparison test on almost same shots taken with the M 240 on B&W mode and the M 246 and the differences were minimal, when we found some. Mostly was in the better high ISO capability of the M 246. But I could also take color picture, my friend couldn't  :D I also noted that I could work quite well in PP on Lightroom the B&W Jpegs produced by the M 240. 

Edited by epand56
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I'd first give an M6 loaded with some Tri-X or T-Max a shot instead of using film profiles and conversion techniques to produce desired results.   Why not just shoot the real thing? 

 

A fully functioning, nice condition, M6 can be had for less than a third of the price of an M246.  The value of the M6 will not change much over time; the M246 will continue to depreciate faster than you can count.  

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I'd first give an M6 loaded with some Tri-X or T-Max a shot instead of using film profiles and conversion techniques to produce desired results.   Why not just shoot the real thing? 

 

A fully functioning, nice condition, M6 can be had for less than a third of the price of an M246.  The value of the M6 will not change much over time; the M246 will continue to depreciate faster than you can count.  

Because a digital B&W shot is not a film B&W shot - besides, if you scan and print you are just using a different sensor and the result may not look like a converted shot, but it will not look like a real film shot on a chemical print either.

I paid 3000 Deutschmark for an M6 in 1984. that was a lot of money. Now I can get one in the 750-1000 Euro range. If that is not depreciation, I don't know what is.

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Because a digital B&W shot is not a film B&W shot - besides, if you scan and print you are just using a different sensor and the result may not look like a converted shot, but it will not look like a real film shot on a chemical print either.

I paid 3000 Deutschmark for an M6 in 1984. that was a lot of money. Now I can get one in the 750-1000 Euro range. If that is not depreciation, I don't know what is.

 

Hi,

Jaapv...a used M6  today will not depreciate anywhere close to the amount of a new M246 going forward.  So, from a cost/loss perspective, if one want's to explore the 'want or need' for dedicated B&W gear, why not choose a lower cost of entry with the least amount of go forward loss?   If the OP continues to find himself reaching for the M6 (or equiv) to shoot B&W film, I'd say that would be a good test to answer his question before investing $7,500 (or there about) for dedicated B&W use.   I won't debate digital vs. film here, I'll leave that to the OP to read and decide. 

 

-Marc

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Hi Bill,

 

My point was not to debate Analogue vs. Digital.  The OP asked "what would you do"...so  I provided another, cheaper, alternative for his decision making process to see if he truly 'wants or needs' a dedicated B&W camera.   

 

Faced with the exact same question about six months ago, I decided on an M6 and purchased a Nikon LS9000 for less than half the price of a new M246.  I'm quite happy with the results thus far.

 

-Marc

 

It IS the real thing...!

 

There really isn't the need to have yet another analogue v digital element to this discussion is there?

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Jaapv,

 

Given that the OP is looking at the M246, I assume his shoot/convert option is more along the cost and specs of the M-P 240.  Perhaps he should also consider the M8 as a lower cost, shoot/convert option as well.  I don't own an M8 and can't make that call; but I can say that my M6 with some Tri-x produces some "crispy detailed snapshots" with high dynamic range.  I'm merely suggesting another low cost alternative to shoot and see if a dedicated, monochrome only camera, is warranted and multiples of the cost.   

 

But still, you are comparing a new camera to a used one. A used M8 will command about the same price as a used M6. And does rather nice B &W too. ;)

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