Pecole Posted July 22, 2016 Share #1 Posted July 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Looking back to the thousands photos of my Fontenelle Collection I took with my favourite Leicaflex SL2/ Macro-Elmarit-R combination, I found a series devoted to variations noted on the various M3's I had. maybe it is a little candid, but I thought it could be of interest to some of you. Here is a first series (I had to reduce sizes and to split in three parts to meet the Forum's restrictions), that does not follow any logical order. - The three first images relate to the film speed reminder disc, displaying sensitivities going from 6/200 to 4/1300 ASA and 10/250 to 4/1300 DIN. - The following two images show the two different lengths of the rewind lever, first longer, then shorter. - And finally, the early triangular shape of the strap lugs against the later semi-circular. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/262754-leica-m3-variations-1/?do=findComment&comment=3083063'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 Hi Pecole, Take a look here Leica M3 variations - 1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted July 22, 2016 Share #2 Posted July 22, 2016 Thanks Pecole. I have an M3 DS in the 7xxxxx SN series with the max ISO of 200 and the long rewind lever and the 'elephant's ears'. There are other variations including the speeds on the shutter dial and the number of red dots on the top of rewind shaft and some others including some internal ones such as the glass pressure plate. I am sure you must have a catalogue of these and I look forward to other series. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2016 Share #3 Posted July 22, 2016 ... Why there are differences on the scales in the calculation of DIN to ASA? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 22, 2016 Share #4 Posted July 22, 2016 Thank you for the information. What about the very early M3 which had a 'step' on the front to the right of the VF? I have seen such only in pictures. . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 23, 2016 Share #5 Posted July 23, 2016 Why there are differences on the scales in the calculation of DIN to ASA? I don't know. None of the three scales shown matches the actual relationship of modern ASA/DIN/ISO speed numbers, and none of them reflects the short period about 1960 when the ASA speeds of B&W film had been increased by the removal of a safety factor but the DIN calculation had not yet been adjusted to match. The "/10" suffix to the DIN speed numbers was abandoned in a 1957 revision of the standard, so presumably the third picture is of a later camera than the first two. This is also the one with the least deviation from the modern scale (the only differences are that ISO 4 equates to 7° not 8° as shown, and that the preferred numbers are 640/29° and 1250/32° rather than 650 and 1300). Back in those days, however, the DIN and ASA speeds of B&W films were calculated on quite different sensitometric bases, so it's conceivable that the slight differences in the three dials reflect Leitz's changing view of how film speeds matched up in practice. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted July 23, 2016 Share #6 Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) The asa scales were revised upwards in the early 60s or thereabouts to match the din standards of positioning the exposure on the characteristic curve. So a formerley 64asa film (FP3) became 125asa, while the din rating stayed the same 22. Gerry Edit, thats what comes of not reading the whole thread before replying, see the more comprehensive explanation above! Edited July 23, 2016 by gyoung 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted July 23, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why there are differences on the scales in the calculation of DIN to ASA? Simply because commercially available films became progressively more sensitive ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share #8 Posted July 23, 2016 I don't know. None of the three scales shown matches the actual relationship of modern ASA/DIN/ISO speed numbers, and none of them reflects the short period about 1960 when the ASA speeds of B&W film had been increased by the removal of a safety factor but the DIN calculation had not yet been adjusted to match. The "/10" suffix to the DIN speed numbers was abandoned in a 1957 revision of the standard, so presumably the third picture is of a later camera than the first two. This is also the one with the least deviation from the modern scale (the only differences are that ISO 4 equates to 7° not 8° as shown, and that the preferred numbers are 640/29° and 1250/32° rather than 650 and 1300). Back in those days, however, the DIN and ASA speeds of B&W films were calculated on quite different sensitometric bases, so it's conceivable that the slight differences in the three dials reflect Leitz's changing view of how film speeds matched up in practice. Perfectly right. I was a film user in these times, and Leitz scales perfectly met - and changed to meet the practice and the commecially available films. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share #9 Posted July 23, 2016 Thank you for the information. What about the very early M3 which had a 'step' on the front to the right of the VF? I have seen such only in pictures. . So did I. Needless to say that I spent all the time I was collecting to chase one of these "angled" marvels. By the way, the only "long chase" - there were several - in my collector career that succeeded, was that for the famous Leica 250 prototype nº 114052 made on special order for a Belgian events photographer. It had survived in its strictly original condition when I was lucky enough to discover - an buy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted February 24, 2017 Share #10 Posted February 24, 2017 Looking back to the thousands photos of my Fontenelle Collection I took with my favourite Leicaflex SL2/ Macro-Elmarit-R combination, I found a series devoted to variations noted on the various M3's I had. maybe it is a little candid, but I thought it could be of interest to some of you. ... - The following two images show the two different lengths of the rewind lever, first longer, then shorter. ... Dear Pierre, On the pictures bellow, normally the long rewind lever should be on the M3 with the four exposed screws securing the top-plate. No ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/262754-leica-m3-variations-1/?do=findComment&comment=3220841'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 24, 2017 Share #11 Posted February 24, 2017 Dear Pierre, On the pictures bellow, normally the long rewind lever should be on the M3 with the four exposed screws securing the top-plate. No ? My DS M3 SN 778657 has the longer rewind lever and the four screws. A later SS M3 which I have has the shorter rewind lever and does not have the four screws. The pictures above are a bit mystifying. Pierre may have an explanation, though. It may relate to when these two changes to the M3 were actually made by Leica. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share #12 Posted February 25, 2017 My DS M3 SN 778657 has the longer rewind lever and the four screws. A later SS M3 which I have has the shorter rewind lever and does not have the four screws. The pictures above are a bit mystifying. Pierre may have an explanation, though. It may relate to when these two changes to the M3 were actually made by Leica. William My personal guess, remembering some very interesting talks with official repairers and dealers many year ago : do not try to explain strange variations by something else than the interchangeability of parts combined with maintenance/repair interventions. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 25, 2017 Share #13 Posted February 25, 2017 My personal guess, remembering some very interesting talks with official repairers and dealers many year ago : do not try to explain strange variations by something else than the interchangeability of parts combined with maintenance/repair interventions. I agree. It is a point I often make here about vintage Leicas of various kinds, but others often seek 'logical' explanations. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted February 25, 2017 Share #14 Posted February 25, 2017 Thank you for the information. What about the very early M3 which had a 'step' on the front to the right of the VF? I have seen such only in pictures. . Is there a link to a picture of this variant please? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted February 25, 2017 Share #15 Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) While on variants this is an early camera but I have never seen a dealer sticker actually on the pressure plate: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Early-LEICA-M3-DS-Made-in-1955-2nd-Year-2nd-Batch-SUMMICRON-1-2-f-5cm-Lens-/361911184809?hash=item5443966da9:g:TW8AAOSwOgdYrcHL http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ynoAAOSw2xRYcp5l/s-l500.jpg Edited February 25, 2017 by chris_livsey Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 25, 2017 Share #16 Posted February 25, 2017 Is there a link to a picture of this variant please? See item 56 in the Westlicht Auction No 28 in November 2015. I am not sure what Pico's reference is to, but this one has a 'double corner' at the edges of the top plate. This is only seen in very early M3s William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 26, 2017 Share #17 Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) More on the changed rewind lever length: My 1955 DS M3 has the original long rewind lever and not the front top screws: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My 1960 SS M3 has the short rewind lever: In between these dates, in 1957, the M2 was introduced, which has a different shape to the top cover so that a shorter rewind lever was needed: The short lever was needed for the M2, and I'd guess rather than keep two different levers in production they changed the M3 lever to fit both models. Since it is certain the M2 was in planning before its 1957 introduction, the change to the M3 lever could have been earlier, in preparation for the new M2 model. Edited February 26, 2017 by TomB_tx 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My 1960 SS M3 has the short rewind lever: In between these dates, in 1957, the M2 was introduced, which has a different shape to the top cover so that a shorter rewind lever was needed: The short lever was needed for the M2, and I'd guess rather than keep two different levers in production they changed the M3 lever to fit both models. Since it is certain the M2 was in planning before its 1957 introduction, the change to the M3 lever could have been earlier, in preparation for the new M2 model. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/262754-leica-m3-variations-1/?do=findComment&comment=3221848'>More sharing options...
jerzy Posted February 26, 2017 Share #18 Posted February 26, 2017 Bawendi (25 Jahre Leica Historica) identified more than 50 various characteristics of early M3s (up to 1 000 000). Some of them are shown in the threads 1-3. Article is in German, with SNs and detailed fotos. Sample scan of one page is attached. Full copy upon PM with email address. And if anyone has a copy of Viewfinder V3, No. 4 mentioned by allan i would appreciate sending me thank you M3 variations sample.pdf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 26, 2017 Share #19 Posted February 26, 2017 More on the changed rewind lever length: My 1955 DS M3 has the original long rewind lever and not the front top screws: M3 1955.jpg My 1960 SS M3 has the short rewind lever: M3 1960.jpg In between these dates, in 1957, the M2 was introduced, which has a different shape to the top cover so that a shorter rewind lever was needed: M2.jpg The short lever was needed for the M2, and I'd guess rather than keep two different levers in production they changed the M3 lever to fit both models. Since it is certain the M2 was in planning before its 1957 introduction, the change to the M3 lever could have been earlier, in preparation for the new M2 model. Thanks Tom. I wonder whether your 1955 M3 DS was above SN 785801 and has a frame lever? My 1955 M3 DS SN 778657 has the four screws, the longer rewind activator and no frame lever. Is it possible that the 4 screws had to go to facilitate the frame lever? Just a thought. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 26, 2017 Share #20 Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) Thanks Tom. I wonder whether your 1955 M3 DS was above SN 785801 and has a frame lever? My 1955 M3 DS SN 778657 has the four screws, the longer rewind activator and no frame lever. Is it possible that the 4 screws had to go to facilitate the frame lever? Just a thought. William Yes, the serial is over 802000 and it has the preview lever, so the 4 screws may have been only before the preview was offered. It may simply be that they decided the screws were not needed and phased out at that time. I wonder if the 4 screws disappeared when the added the top screw to the bayonet flange? I also realized that the M2 top cover design that did not leave room for the long M3 rewind lever was designed for the button rewind, which fit the cover design neatly. When they decided to change from button to lever, a shorter lever was necessary; so maybe the M3 changed along with the M2 button phase out.. Edited February 26, 2017 by TomB_tx Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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