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Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D


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You and I had this discussion in a previous thread; the X1D lens re-cocking definitely makes the camera's next shot longer to obtain. By that, I mean that the faster shutter action on the S 007 makes it ready to go right away, while the X1D is still going through its clackety-clack x3 action.

 

Rob

Camera speeds/convenience can be compared in frames per second [FPS]; out of sheer curiosity what are the FPS figures for S007 and X1D?

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I suppose you mean other than the sensor size, which potentially provides clear advantages over FF files.

 

Jeff

Yes, I am quite sure that the difference is more than that caused by the sensor size. But I cannot objectively 'prove' it. Edited by helged
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Camera speeds/convenience can be compared in frames per second [FPS]; out of sheer curiosity what are the FPS figures for S007 and X1D?

Hasselblad claims about 2 for the X1D and I agree. Except they mean 2 fps and I mean 2 spf. So, I gave it back after using it for one weekend.
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My concern: if a subject moves, how long will will it take for the X1D to snap off a second shot?  From my experience, the S 007 was much more capable of a refocus and quick snap, as compared to the X1D. (I chose not to stick with the X1D for that reason).

Edited by ropo54
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Fortunately i don't need or want either X1D or S007, yet.  Handled both, also Fuji, and X1D is, i think, ergonomic delight.  

 

As i don't do AF photography (upcoming mirrorless Nikon may change that especially if camera comes bundled with kit zoom) i think i could live with "slow" X1D, most of my pictures are cropped either square of close to 3:4 ratio.  From todays perspective on price alone i would be tempted by X1D, I think for the price of a new S007 body one can buy complete X1D camera & lenses set.   

 

Maybe next generation X1D, more responsive/improved EVF, or much cheaper S007 successor would arouse my GAS.

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You and I had this discussion in a previous thread; the X1D lens re-cocking definitely makes the camera's next shot longer to obtain. By that, I mean that the faster shutter action on the S 007 makes it ready to go right away, while the X1D is still going through its clackety-clack x3 action.

 

Rob

 

I agree. I have been using my S007 a bit lately and find that in practice the re-cocking of the X1D is offset by the focus and recompose of the S007. In the end neither are "quick".

 

Gordon

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Camera speeds/convenience can be compared in frames per second [FPS]; out of sheer curiosity what are the FPS figures for S007 and X1D?

 

It is not only FPS but also time to wait after switching on and for me more important blackout time.

I dont like the blackout time, since I can not see the subject immediatly after the shot. I dont have a good feeling, if I caught the shot or not, when shooting people/kids. But being able to move focus point is an important advantage as well.

 

The SL is obviously the fastest and most flexible camer, still IMO one can see the IQ advantage of MF in many images.

Edited by tom0511
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It is not only FPS but also time to wait after switching on and for me more important blackout time.

Both are great systems but the S feels much quicker to me overall. The x1d feels much slower though.

 

That is the reason i asked, to make sure, appreciate your post.  

 

If rate of fire is one shot up to two seconds so blackout seems given, X1D is probably best reserved for static or semi-static subjects, almost like M240/246 with EVF.  

Having said that I never saw X1D as fast shooting camera like either SL601 or Nikon D5 or Sony A9.  Isn't the conventional wisdom that high MP require low firing rate?  

 

The way i see it here on LUF there seem to be expectation to determine equivalence of SL601 and X1D.  Tough call, each system has its strengths and weaknesses.  

Biggest strength of X1D seems to be affordability in Medium Format, oh and first class picture quality from 50Mp 33x44mm sensor.   

Biggest strength, in my eyes, of SL601 is Leica lens compatibility, ease of use and superb focusing, oh and great picture quality.

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But, for my preferred uses, I wanted the ability to catch quick snaps of my grandchildren

Just playing devil’s advocate here, since you have the TL and SL already, are you finding the S that much better than an APS-c or FF zoom for that sort of activity?

 

In a way, it seems like quick snapshots are exactly what a Fuji XT2/XH1/Xpro2 are good for. You get close to Leica M performance with convenience of quick snapshots/AF/weather sealing

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It is not faster for taking the snapshot, but the images it renders have more tonal nuances and superb detail.  (I have not had it all that long, but I would also tell you that the black and white conversions are superb).  
 

I suppose I should not have been so specific in stating the S was just for quick snapshots. I really had meant to be more inclusive and to suggest that I wanted to be able to handhold, with a degree of portability, and be able to also have the capacity for "quick snaps".  

 

Portraits and landscape and architecture, the static objects as well, but I wanted the other capabilities which were missing for me with the X1D. 

 

Rob

Edited by ropo54
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It is not faster for taking the snapshot, but the images it renders have more tonal nuances and superb detail. (I have not had it all that long, but I would also tell you that the black and white conversions are superb).

 

I suppose I should not have been so specific in stating the S was just for quick snapshots. I really had meant to be more inclusive and to suggest that I wanted to be able to handhold, with a degree of portability, and be able to also have the capacity for "quick snaps".

 

Portraits and landscape and architecture, the static objects as well, but I wanted the other capabilities which were missing for me with the X1D.

 

Rob

Ah! Now I understand.

 

I completely agree. The tonality of the S is a step up ahead of everything else out there in its size. AF wise, I suspect that even the S008 will only be marginally faster focusing with the current S lenses. You pretty much are stuck with s007 + ~15% results. When using the HC lenses or Contax lenses, you can really see how the lens motor designs affect focusing.

 

Even the Leica SL with S adapter focuses slowly, suggesting that the SL dual focus motors plays just as much of a role as the algorithms.

 

When the SL sensor technology catches up to the S, it may be a harder sell for the S. The S is at greatest risk for abandonment with transition to a MF mirrorless mount. Just think about the R system...

 

At this point the SL/TL/CL have solidified the L Mount as being a more certain long term platform than the S system. The rumored HW64 should come out with 25% faster AF and 2x the pixels, which will help with handholding and detail — but I am not sure we’ll see better tonality than the 006 when your images fit in the dynamic range of the 006. Maybe Leica will surprise us with IBIS. That would be a game changer to keep the S thriving.

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Just curious, are cameras with IBIS more difficult to produce?

Trade offs. Panasonic has good IBIS so Leica has access to the technology.

 

“Sensor-shift IS systems operate by ‘floating’ the sensor using a series of electromagnets. Even when they’re ‘off’ they’re not locked in place, they’re simply set so that the electromagnets aren’t attempting to correct for movement. This has the side-effect that, which mounted on a professional stabilization rig, there’s a risk of the sensor being shaken around.“ from Dpreview

 

This means that there are times that you won’t have perfect on axis alignment. This is why Leica is cautious for even OIS on the Q.

 

This is how Fuji solves it

https://fujifilm-x.com/us/x-stories/x-h1-development-story-7/

 

What is great is that you can gain a few extra stops of performance and in most human hands, a step up in sharpness.

 

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/rules-of-thumb-for-handheld-shutter-speed/

 

IBIS is one reason a lot of people like Sony Ax plus M lenses

 

Edit: and while electronic shutters are silent, they still cause artifacts from rolling shutter. If you haven’t already, you should just play with an XH1 because its shutter is quieter than even the leaf shutter in the Q. An M11 that was the size of the M9 (ie bigger than M10) in exchange for the quietness of the XH1 shutter and IBIS would be a killer camera. Ibis works well under 135mm or so, also perfect for M system.

Edited by AlanD
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Okay, thanks. This could explain why they are having some production issues with the S008. When I first heard that I thought ‘what morons.’ Still to be announced at this year’s Photokina, though. And djmay’s thread “Good news from Wetzlar” https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/279389-good-news-from-wetzlar/ is starting to make sense now. He couldn’t say much after visiting at the end of last year except that “more good things are happening and it is good to be in the S system.” I thought more MPx for the S008 but that’s a given. He wouldn’t get exctited about that. A compact mirrorless S008? Unlikely. Now, IBIS he would be thrilled about.

 

BTW, I was also told that the SL2 is to be announced in 2Q19, think May. But hey, it’s Leica, it could be May 2020. :)

Edited by Chaemono
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Okay, thanks. This could explain why they are having some production issues with the S008. When I first heard that I thought ‘what morons.’ Still to be announced at this year’s Photokina, though. And djmay’s thread “Good news from Wetzlar” https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/279389-good-news-from-wetzlar/ is starting to make sense now. He couldn’t say much after visiting at the end of last year except that “more good things are happening and it is good to be in the S system.” I thought more MPx for the S008 but that’s a given. He wouldn’t get exctited about that. A compact mirrorless S008? Unlikely. Now, IBIS he would be thrilled about.

 

BTW, I was also told that the SL2 is to be announced in 2Q19, think May. But hey, it’s Leica, it could be May 2020. :)

Or simply May...

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