Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Jeff S]

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Well, yes - 50 nice MPs, undoubtedly first-class IQ, but with a stick-out lump LCD, incl. batteries and EVF well over 900 grams. Hmmm.. Nice price, Hasselblad should worry.

 

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/

 

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx_50s/features/page_03.html

No cooling box (the lump) in the rumored GFX R....and under 800g...

 

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-gfx-50r-coming-september-25-for-around-4500-no-cooling-box-dual-sd-card-slot-2-way-tilt-screen-and-more-specs/

 

Jeff

Edited September 10, 2018 by Jeff S

[Alistairm]

I really like Fuji’s approach of leaving 135 format alone and focusing on APS-C and cropped MF.

 

With the current generation sensors, and if I wasn’t so deeply committed on M and SL lenses, I could easily see myself using APS-C as for an affordable carry everywhere / fast / telephoto / macro / zoom lens system paired with a cropped MF body and some primes for more specialised and methodical shooting.

 

Whatever floats one’s boat, it is good to see Fuji vibrant so that as consumers we are not just reliant on Canon and Nikon and Sony to drive the mainstream agenda.

 

Now if Leica can just announce an SL2, a 1:1 SL 150 Macro and a 1.7x teleconverter...

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[Jared]

Given that there are practical limitations for how large prints most of us ever will do - in contrast to the present mp race - one would think that we are in a transition period with diminishing returns. Or put otherwise: When the SL2 is out with +/- 50 mp (in 2019?), +/- 100 mp sensors from other vendors will (likely) be present, but the difference for many/most users will not be significant. Add the  o u t s t a n d i n g  SL optics, and the future of the SL system looks quite bright for me.

 

Yes, the SL-system is expensive (and it will likely remain so).

Yes, the af will likely lag other systems (but it will likely be improved upon).

Yes, the flash protocol lags behind (should be possible to upgrade, one would think).

Yes, tethering/app connection could have been better/more stable (fixable, one would think).

Yes, the SL lacks more specialist primes (macro, t/s, tele, extender(s), but some will likely come in the not too distant future).

 

But for 'ordinary' shooting in the focal range 16-280mm, the SL delivers today. And even more so tomorrow.

 

Diminishing returns with more megapixels?  Absolutely.  We've had diminishing returns ever since we moved away from six megapixel cameras in my book.  I love my SL and do not expect to sell it any time soon.  For most of the things I use the SL for, 24 megapixels is ample.  For most of the things i use the X1D for, 50 megapixels and the accompanying color accuracy at high sampling rates is better, but not by all that much.    Would I even want an X2D when it comes out?  Not for the 100 megapixels, frankly.  At 50 megapixels we are already at the point that I don't like how long some things take to process or how frequently I have to empty my computer's hard drive to make room for the next batch of photos.  Maybe an SL2 will be able to meet both needs for me, but I doubt it.  I really like the smaller size of the X1D and its lenses vs the SL and its zooms.  In a couple years, I expect I will still be shooting with two or three cameras depending on the requirement.  Heck, if Leica doesn't allow me to turn off LENR I know I'll still be shooting with at least two cameras.

 

For general purpose photography--walking around the city, weekend getaways, family events and the like--I've already moved to the CL to be honest.  Much less bulk and weight than the SL or the X1D and image quality that is easily good enough for posting on the web or making 8" x 10" prints.  I love that little camera.  That being said, there are still things the SL does better, and there is no question the zooms in particular I find astonishing.

[Jared]

I followed this thread at the beginning and, suffering from gas, decided to get the X1D kit.  It is a great camera but after 6 months of use, it's just not for me.  I prefer manual lenses on the SL to the X1D, and for most of my photography I prefer the M to the SL.  I just like a simple, mechanical camera.  And I rarely need more than 24MP.  If anyone is interested I have it listed on eBay:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hasselblad-X1D-50c-Medium-Format-Mirrorless-Digital-Camera-and-Lenses-Field-Kit/253853840957?hash=item3b1ade363d:g:cTMAAOSwSZBbgxLY

 

X1D composite time-lapse* during the Perseid meteor shower, "starring" a meteorite, the milky way, Saturn, Mars, the moon, the Sawtooth Wilderness and Little Redfish Lake.

 

FINALvFLATwRefl.jpg

 

*Technical details:  30mm lens.  Milky Way was 5 separate 8 second exposures stacked using Starry Landscape Stacker to eliminate star trails and reduce noise.  That was blended with an exposure that included a meteor (once you see one it's too late to press the shutter release, so you have to take exposures all night long.  Like 8 hours).  Mars and Saturn were in the milky way exposures.  The mood and the landscape were made late dusk at 1/500 sec and then layered onto the other exposures.  This kind of photograph is not possible without layering.  It's a time-lapse photograph, similar to what Stephen Wilkes has been doing for National Geographic.

 

The composition is really cool, and I certainly agree that nightscapes almost always benefit from layering like what you described.  I'm also a big fan of Starry Landscape Stacker--does a great job using a very simple UI and even manages to address rectilinear distortion from wide angle lenses quite well.  However, I wanted to ask you about a couple aspects of your picture:

 

1) You mentioned that the landscape portion of the image was taken at late dusk.  I love the fact that you didn't try to make it so bright that it looks unnatural compared to the Milky Way.  That being said, why is the background set of mountains so much lighter than the foreground?  It doesn't look like a difference in albedo, i.e., snow.  

2) What is the crescent shape on the far right of the image?  Is that the crescent moon?  It's about the right size for a 30mm lens on medium format, but I don't see any sign of Earth shine or any significant light pollution.  Just curious.

3) What caused the unusual color gradient in the sky?  Normally a light pollution gradient would vary more with altitude, not horizontally.  You've got a strong magenta cast on the left side of the image, a strong green cast in part of the Milky Way, and then a fairly neutral right side of the sky.  That's not something I've seen before.  I know the X1D can do some weird things with high ISO's and long exposures when using the electronic shutter (including some magenta banding in the middle of the frame), but I hadn't seen your particular issue.

4) Interesting what StarryLandscapeStacker did with the reflection of the planet in the lake, huh?  You get a streak from, I assume the reflection of the planet moving throughout your night sky exposures.  Since the reflection is in the "landscape" portion of the image rather than the "sky" portion of the image, no alignment there before stacking, hence a streak.  Cool effect.  I might have cloned it out in your place, but I'm honestly not sure.  It definitely adds a point of interest and makes you wonder for a minute.  

5) Love the meteor you layered in.  

 

Assuming all the images were taken the same night from the same location with the same equipment I personally have no problem with your choice to composite and layer.  Frankly, it's the only way to present a well exposed image for these objects.  The only part I would have worked on more in your case is the strange magenta/green gradient in the Milky Way.  Really nice composition and really nice result.

[Jared]

Jared

 

sorry for not being clear. The flash comment was strictly related to the electronic shutter only and probably stems from my frustration that non HB lenses can only with with the E-Shutter and its current, strong limitations. I totally agree the flash implementation from Leica sucks. And I have no idea why they do not team up with one of the larger companies out there to have proper wireless HSS sync implemented for the SL/CL/M in their controllers. The flash offerings from Leica just aren't good enough. I know what Hasselblad did. Good move, but then Nikon is also not a direct competitor. This is different with Leica.

 

Cheers

Ivo

 

Ah, I understand what you meant now.  I'm personally grateful that the X1D has only the leaf shutter, but, then, I don't own any legacy medium format lenses.  If I did, I'd probably hate the fact that there is no focal plane shutter.  

 

As far as Leica's relatively poor offerings for strobes... Frankly, that is one of the things that has been holding them back with regard to professional adoption of the SL.  I'm not saying all that many professionals would choose a Leica in any event for studio work, weddings, and the like, but until the release of the SF60 and SF-C1 is was nearly impossible to choose the SL for that kind of work.  Now it's merely difficult.  I hope they continue to work on their flash protocols.  Even if we are limited to overpriced Nissin products I'd be fine, but they need a flash that is as consistent for fill work and the like as Nikon and Canon.  

[Alistairm]

I gave the X1D's weather sealing a work out today, shooting in rain in Sicily. In short... it has not gone well. The camera worked fine for a while, but after maybe 40 mins in the rain it started to throw error messages. It currently won't recognise any SD cards and throws an error asking for the battery to be removed on startup. Hopefully it will dry out and recover, however, it was conditions that I have shot for half a day in with the SL without concern. 

[satijntje]

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That is a very serious discovery!

Try to report this in the largest independent X1D Facebook group:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/HasselbladX1D/

 

Wade smith from Hasselblad is answering to questions and problems.

Good luck with the dry out.

That X1D is a beast of a camera

John

Edited September 21, 2018 by satijntje

[mmradman]

I gave the X1D's weather sealing a work out today, shooting in rain in Sicily. In short... it has not gone well. The camera worked fine for a while, but after maybe 40 mins in the rain it started to throw error messages. It currently won't recognise any SD cards and throws an error asking for the battery to be removed on startup. Hopefully it will dry out and recover, however, it was conditions that I have shot for half a day in with the SL without concern.

 

Sounds like user error.

[satijntje]

Sounds like user error.

Why?

[Alistairm]

@satijntje feel free to report mate - I don't use Facebook

 

Not sure why using a very expensive camera widely promoted as weather sealed in the rain would be user error. I bought the camera to use to take photos, not to sit on a shelf and look at. 

[mmradman]

Why?

Unless equipment is certified for use in rain/water prolonged exposure in rain can be bad idea with or without weather sealing. Even wristwatches certified to100m depth for instance are really only good for accidental immersion like washing hands.

[Alistairm]

With respect, I've used heaps of cameras in the rain with no problems at all. Obviously one exercises reasonable caution, but this was far from immersion and the X1D simply has not coped. To just say "user error" avoids the issue, which is that the camera is promoted as being a good tool for outdoor photography, including in inclement weather, but in use has failed in that application. The SL, on the other hand, has always performed admirably for me in similar conditions. 

[mmradman]

With respect, I've used heaps of cameras in the rain with no problems at all. Obviously one exercises reasonable caution, but this was far from immersion and the X1D simply has not coped. To just say "user error" avoids the issue, which is that the camera is promoted as being a good tool for outdoor photography, including in inclement weather, but in use has failed in that application. The SL, on the other hand, has always performed admirably for me in similar conditions.

 

Good to hear about SL601. This being Leica forum you will get sympathy for your misfortune but as no Leica gear underperformed no reason for concern. You need to address this with HB.

 

BTW, even SL601 which was tauted as weather resistant has been reported failing while being used near water, manufacturers like to sell their wares with maximum publicity but sensible precautions when using in weather extremes is always good practice.

[Jeff S]

Unless equipment is certified for use in rain/water prolonged exposure in rain can be bad idea with or without weather sealing. Even wristwatches certified to100m depth for instance are really only good for accidental immersion like washing hands.

David Farkas, a Leica dealer, had no qualms touting the performance of his S007 in steady Iceland rain...

 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/my-photographic-adventure-through-iceland-with-the-leica-s-typ007/

 

The SL has been described to a similar robust standard, and reports from users (that I’ve seen) affirm this resilience.

 

I’ve been waiting for similar experiences from X1D users. This one, at least, is disappointing.

 

Jeff

[mmradman]

David Farkas, a Leica dealer, had no qualms touting the performance of his S007 in steady Iceland rain...https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/my-photographic-adventure-through-iceland-with-the-leica-s-typ007/

The SL has been described to a similar robust standard, and reports from users (that I’ve seen) affirm this resilience.

I’ve been waiting for similar experiences from X1D users. This one, at least, is disappointing.

Jeff

If I was David Farkas I would also tout about camera performance in all sort of conditions, that’s is in his job description.

 

Talking of SL if I recall Leica reps splashed it with water at product launch to reinforce wearherseal message but since than there was one report of water damage here on LUF, it may have been SL, also it may have been S, long time ago. My view is to treat expensive equipment with care and respect, especially near water and even more near salty water, also carry insurance.

[LocalHero1953]

I've had the SL and 24-90 zoom out in rain for long periods without problems.

 

Please post links to reports of SL failures in the rain.

[Jeff S]

If I was David Farkas I would also tout about camera performance in all sort of conditions, that’s is in his job description.

.

Well, if I bought an S from Leica Miami, I’d have no worries about ever having to argue over coverage for water damage in normal rain. His article comes complete with pics.

 

Personal insurance is a given for all my gear, regardless. As is common sense, but even my M cameras have survived rain since the 80’s, including digital Ms since the M8.2.

 

Jeff

[mmradman]

Well, if I bought an S from Leica Miami, I’d have no worries about ever having to argue over coverage for water damage in normal rain. His article comes complete with pics.

Personal insurance is a given for all my gear, regardless. As is common sense, but even my M cameras have survived rain since the 80’s, including digital Ms since the M8.2.

Jeff

So in your case not likely to make user error. Pretty much my point.

I used cameras in all conditions and never had a failure, sometime you just know it’s time to put it back into waterproof bag or just run for shelter.

[Jeff S]

So in your case not likely to make user error. Pretty much my point.

I used cameras in all conditions and never had a failure, sometime you just know it’s time to put it back into waterproof bag or just run for shelter.

I disagree, if Alistairm used it as described in ‘normal’ rain conditions for 40 minutes. That’s not user error; that’s ineffective weather sealing IMO.

 

Jeff

Edited September 21, 2018 by Jeff S

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[mmradman]

I disagree, if Alistairm used it as described in ‘normal’ rain conditions for 40 minutes. That’s not user error; that’s ineffective weather sealing IMO.

Jeff

When you use camera in rain for a prolonged period of time how do you deal with rain drops hitting front of the lens, screen wipers?